Many Voices - One Call: Season Five/Episode Four: Taming the Social Media Monster. Taking back our Attention!

Digital technology is everywhere and social media notifications put a constant demand on our attention. Studies abound that all this pull on our minds, thoughts, and emotions, and the monetization of our user data is not working in our favor! On this episode, hosts Ashleylucie Lumbala, Sion Hardy and faculty co-host Dr. Babette Faehmel ask: What are we losing when we give so much attention to our devices? What are we handing over when we turn to artificial intelligence? And what would it look like if we used the tools in our hands more deliberately for voice and empowerment? 

Joining us to discuss the pros and cons of digital technology are Elijah Olivieri, Computer Science student, SUNY Schenectady; Bhawin Suchak, Film Director, Co-Founder, Co-Executive Director YouthFX; Prince Sprauve, Film Director and Founder/CEO of Quiet On Set LLC, and Thomas (Tom) Mackey, Professor in the Department of Arts and Media, SUNY Empire State University. Together, we discuss the impacts of social media, AI, algorithmic manipulation, and how we can regain agency and ensure that our voices are heard.

The views voiced on this episode reflect the lived experiences and uncensored opinions of the guests; they do not necessarily capture the full diversity of attitudes within a larger community, nor do they express an official view of SUNY Schenectady.

Chapters

• 0:00 Hosts Introduce Theme And Guests
• 2:00 Creator Intros And Media Backgrounds
• 7:45 Classroom Attention And Phone Use
• 12:30 Love–Hate With Platforms And Detox
• 18:00 Algorithms, Business Models, And Division
• 24:30 Short‑Form Content And Infinite Scroll
• 28:30 Filmmakers On Attention, Promotion, And Boundaries
• 36:00 Controversy Culture And Creativity Decline
• 43:00 Meta‑Literacy: Ethics And Agency Online
• 49:30 AI’s Impact On Media, Work, And Access
• 57:00 Responsibility, Boycotts, And Real‑World Action
• 1:05:00 Teaching Media Literacy And Local Power
• 1:12:00 Final Takeaways And Closing Credits

Transcript

Ashleylucie Lumbala: 0:04

Welcome to Many Voices, One Call, SUNY Schenectady's civic engagement podcast. My name is Ashley Lumbala, and I am one of the co-hosts of Many Voices, One Call.

Sion Hardy: 0:14

My name is Sion Hardy, and I am also one of the student co-hosts for Many Voices, One Call, and I am a teacher education major.

Babette Faehmel: 0:23

Hi, and I'm Babette Faehmel, History Professor, and the faculty co-host. This is episode four of season five, and today's episode is going to be about our relationship with media and in particular social media. And also about why we pay so much attention to social media when there's already so much evidence that it actually making us less social and more lonely, anxious, confused. And it's also - because we don't want to be entirely negative, it's also going to be about how we can leverage media in ways that give us more voice and more agency and creates community and allows us to share information responsibly. So to talk about all of these things, we are joined today by a group of people who are all, of course, consumers of media, because everybody is. And in addition, some of them are we are all creators, but some of them are more active creators than others. So let's start maybe by going around the room and say your name and your position or area of work. And we have one student participant also here. And so maybe you can say what you're studying and if you consider yourself mostly a consumer of media or a creator. So can we can we start here?

Bhawin Suchak: 1:38

Sure. Hey, how are you doing? My name is Bhawin Suchak. I am one of the co-executive directors and co-founders of an organization called YouthFX, and we actually are creators of media, teaching young people how to be sort of able to use the power of media for empowerment, storytelling, and community change. And I think one of the other things that I'll add is, you know, I've been an educator for over 25 years, working with young people, and have kind of witnessed the sort of longitude over a long period of time, the longitudinal impact of social media on their honestly, their uh ability to be in spaces with each other, um, which I think is is really um kind of evident, especially after the pandemic when we had no choice but to be kind of isolated. Um in addition to that, I'm also a filmmaker myself. I've been making films for about 20 years, primarily documentaries, um, but also a lot of narrative shorts and worked on some features. But the, you know, the the last project I did is called Out of the Muck, which is a documentary I co-directed with um another filmmaker, Ira McKinley. It's about his family down in Florida, and it's actually streaming right now on Independent Lense on PBS. Yeah, PBS is not gone, it's still around, um, even though you know the this current uh government really does not want it to exist, and it's a really important form of media, uh actually. So that's something we can even talk about a little bit. Um but that film uh was my last full uh feature-length documentary that I made. Um and yeah, excited to be part of the conversation.

Babette Faehmel: 3:04

Yeah, thank you for joining us. That sounds awesome.

Prince Sprauve: 3:07

Uh my name is Prince Sprauve. I'm a film director, writer, producer. I'm also the uh director of media down at the SEAT Center where I train students uh to get in the film industry. I also run my own company called Quiet on Set. Um, and I've been doing film for about almost 20 years. I ain't got as much time as Bhawin in the game, but 20 years. Um and I started I actually started at Schenectady High School. I actually um was going in to be a teacher. Funny story, I went in to be a teacher and came out a director. Um and and that's how filmmaking kind of fell in my lap. I I've I've definitely produced dozens of uh documentaries, music videos. I've done two features, I've done four shorts, um, and I've done a dozen of projects with students, community members, with people that don't act, people that are trying to get in the film industry, and it's definitely been a pleasure to serve this community. And I've and I've also seen the effects long term of how social media and media has changed our behavior, the way we interact with one another. You know, sometimes people would rather even text and talk and be in the same room, and um, that's definitely a concern, but it's also has this positive. There's also a lot of things, you know, great things that we can leverage from it. I just think we just have to channel uh energy. So I'm excited to be here and excited about this this particular topic.

Babette Faehmel: 4:25

Great. Elijah.

Elijah Olivieri: 4:27

Yeah, well, my name is Elijah Oliveri. I'm just a student here in SUNY Schenectady, trying to get my two-year uh computer science degree. And I'm very interested in the technical aspect um of things. Uh I like programming, graphics, and I as far as I can relate that to media, uh, there's like computer graphics everywhere in movies and um social media. And I think I, I like the technical aspect of um going into it. I think there needs to be more of a focus on stuff like that because I uh as of right now, technology is so um advanced that we're not really thinking about like lower level problems. So we're kind of falling on solutions that aren't very uh innovative, I should say, um, with AI, but that's a whole different topic. Um so yeah, I would I would I would consider myself a creator more than like um a consumer of media uh as well. Um probably not to the degree of the um two filmmakers here, but um definitely like in the background of things, and I'm looking forward to trying to enter that space as well. So that's yeah, I'm not quite there yet, but I have a lot to learn.

Babette Faehmel: 5:46

Wow. All right, and Tom?

Thomas Mackey: 5:49

Hello everyone, and uh very happy to join this uh amazing uh group of people to have this conversation. But thanks so much for the invitation. I'm Tom Mackey, and I'm professor in the Department of Arts and Media at Empire State University, and I'm also program coordinator for our digital media arts program, which is a BA and BS in digital media arts. I also just started a new role as department chair for uh language, um, communication and cultural studies, so finding some interesting connections there as well. Our digital media arts program really captures much of what we're talking about. We want our students to explore this program and look at digital media from a critical perspective, really asking good questions about it, while also learning to be effective, creator, creative producers of digital content. And so many of the courses explore both. Uh, I would say that we have we cover the theoretical aspect of these issues while also providing many opportunities for students to be both individual and collaborative producers of uh responsible digital content. And one last thing I'll just say too is that my research focus is also in this area. Uh I I developed a a literacy called meta-literacy, and uh we'll probably talk about that a little bit today. And that's very much about this idea of learner as ethical producer of digital content. So I may uh talk a little bit about that and how that connects to today's conversation. So again, thank you so much.

Babette Faehmel: 7:28

Thank you. Um and by the way, uh a lot of our students transfer to Empire, so it's that might be really interesting for people to know about the opportunities there. Um so okay, Sion, I think you have the very first question, correct?

Sion Hardy: 7:44

Yes. So I want to know um, based on what you see around you, how is social media impacting individuals and society, and what are some of the pros and cons that come with that?

Babette Faehmel: 7:59

So um I'm I definitely have a con here because I what I see, what I see, I'm a teacher, I teach history, um, I teach civics, and um I find that I'm in a constant competition with phones and media, and it's um starting to strike me um as pretty a pretty big issue because um it's almost like it's an addiction that people cannot get away from. And I, I do find it harmful, I have to say. So I mean, I'm sure we are going to talk about the pros of social media um during this episode, but from just like from the teacher and attention competition perspective, um I my my I I wish there was less. I'm actually considering banning phones next semester just because I don't think that by allowing them I am serving my students. So, Ashley?

Ashleylucie Lumbala: 9:01

That's actually interesting. That's a very interesting thing to say. Well, we're in an age where everything is on our phones, because like I'm a student, I was your student last semester, every single thing is on our phones, and at the same time, uh, somebody could be doing something productive, but then at the same time it's like, okay, we know most of us are just on social media and like the class could be bor... like could be really boring, but I think that's an interesting perspective to take. Banned phones, and then maybe that I think that will change that would drastically change the environment of classrooms.

Babette Faehmel: 9:35

I mean, as you mentioned, the class could be boring, and that's absolutely possible. But um, what is the role of the students to then maybe contribute to a more lively class? And is the phone serving that agenda necessarily, right? So that's like just um I don't know. I have never banned phones before. Never.

Ashleylucie Lumbala: 9:54

No, I that's what I'm saying. I think that would take like that would be a drastic difference in like a class's environment. And it's a college class. Because I know like in schools, it's like okay, but it's a college class. That would be different, but also I feel like the students would be more interactive.

Babette Faehmel: 10:09

Hopefully.

Ashleylucie Lumbala: 10:09

I feel hopefully they would be more interactive. We'll see. Because that would change the way they're looking at like the way they look at the class and everything that goes on.

Babette Faehmel: 10:17

What's your relationship to social media?

Ashleylucie Lumbala: 10:20

Well, I have a... we would say... hate love relationship because when it's, when it comes to me and social media, I am, I'm on social media, but it's like I think it's Insta, there's TikTok, that's that's like my social media, but then at the same time, sometimes it just gets too much, and sometimes I'm like, okay, I'm tired, I'm burned out, I can't do this anymore. And it's that's especially during the semester, because like I'm already burned out from school, and then there's social media at the same time, and it's like my head, my head can't take this, so I just delete everything. And I just... yeah, it's it's like it's impulsive. So because like one day I could just be there, like, okay, I can't take this anymore, and delete, delete, delete, and I'm like, okay, I can breathe now. Because sometimes I feel like it suffocates me, and sometimes I feel like it also helps me um move from reality. But then when I have too much going on in my actual life, I can't take social media, so I delete it. So that's me.

Babette Faehmel: 11:17

I love that like assertion of agency. Yeah. Delete, delete, delete. Okay, who's next?

Elijah Olivieri: 11:24

Um, well, I I like I think this what you said was interesting, Ashley, because it like do you have like a do you do like post on Instagram or Snap or or anything?

Ashleylucie Lumbala: 11:35

I do post on Instagram, yeah.

Elijah Olivieri: 11:37

Because it it sounds like you made it sound like homework almost. Like you got homework at school and in social media. I think I think what you're trying to say, you could correct me if it's more specific, but like when you when people use social media, I think a big con is like energy. You spend a lot of energy um scrolling and um reacting to things, even if it's not like uh outwardly, you're reacting to current events that's happening um constantly. And uh most people when they're you know, that's the first thing they do when they wake up and they're and they're just kind of tapped out for the day, or that's the well, I'm sure most people, that's the last thing they do at night when they when they're sleeping, when they're about to sleep. Um I think that's the biggest con of social media, but um I have a big uh bias here because uh I don't have social media at all. That's my relationship with social media. I I don't have Instagram, no Snapchat, no Facebook, and I intend to keep it this way, even though I feel like a lot of people in my age bracket think I'm a complete weird old for not engaging in a lot of uh social media or worried about posting or following. Um I I I guess I used to while I was like in uh early high school, but uh I just never like fell into it. Like I never found it addicting, I never found it in engaging at all. So everything I'm about to say is from that perspective. So I it's gonna be very biased when it comes to all the cons. Um yeah.

Ashleylucie Lumbala: 13:19

Well, before we continue, I'm just gonna like interject. So um I I was like uh I think last year 2025, I wasn't really on social media like at all. I used to post and everything, but I just I fell out of that also. And um, it's not you said homework. No, it's not like homework, it's just that like you said, the energy, spending so much time and energy, and then also for me, it it it also distracts me in a way. Like I actually forget what I have to do, like the important things that I have to do, and there I am on social media scrolling. So that's why at some point I just figured, okay, I don't think I'm going to die if I delete my Instagram. And one day I did, I deleted my Instagram, I deleted my TikTok, and I felt like things were so much better. So I just I just do that. I randomly delete and deactivate, deactivate my accounts and activate my accounts. That's that's just me. That's like my relationship.

Babette Faehmel: 14:13

I actually find the comparison with homework quite apt. I mean, like, so you you were just saying, like, um you spend a lot of energy or people spend a lot of energy on social media, and like that energy can't go any place else. But you also know you have like the homework, but so you kind of like feel these pressures to be on social media, and even though there might just be peer pressures or like cultural pressures or something like that, but it's still a pressure, just like doing homework. So I I don't know if it's like sometimes I feel people don't like well, it's almost like the agency has disappeared, and that is concerning. So, Sion, what's your relationship?

Sion Hardy: 14:51

Well, I'm someone who does post on social media a lot because I'm an artist. So, like ever since I was young, like I think my like 12 or 13 years old, I've been on social media posting a lot, and I've been able to see the evolution of social media, and I'm not sure that I like it so much because it's becoming a competition for attention, which makes it very addicting. And I was just looking at the notes here from some of the research that Ashley and I did. And um, there was actually a lot to say about how excessive phone use and social media use can be damaging to the brain. It can cause imbalances and damage to memory. So I so as you mentioned, like taking phones away for your class, I think that would be a good idea because it would probably be a necessary break for students to put their phones down for a minute and actually pay attention to something other than a screen.

Babette Faehmel: 16:08

Yeah, thanks. Um I'm gonna quote you when I introduce the new policy. Um Tom, um, I'm I don't want to put you on the spot, but um because as Sion was just mentioning that's the evolution or the transformation of social media, right? Um as a professor of digital media, how how did social media change? I mean, I I remember vaguely um that the Google algorithm at some point changed, and I don't know, and then like TikTok is now there. There's always this famous TikTok algorithm that like is kind of like nobody quite knows how magically it works. Um like how did all of this evolve?

Thomas Mackey: 16:48

Well, it's so interesting when you talk about that because I I I think of you know my own experience um kind of observing this with you know, I'm old enough to remember, you know, the emergence of the web and then what we originally called Web 2.0, Web 2.0, which was really this kind of emergence of social applications. And I think too of what you said originally, that social media in some ironic ways made us less social. So, how it's changed, I think the thing that everyone has to remember is that these are they seem free and open, but these are really proprietary applications that are owned by big corporations that have their own agendas. So I think that that influence has really happened and increased more and more. The what's in my view, what's developed is really the alg..., as you noted, the algorithms which have not connected us, they've really divided us. Because ultimately, because these are proprietary, because there is an effort really to make money from us and our interests and our personal data, um what's happening is that they ultimately give us what they want, what we want. So um it's interesting that the two, according to Pew uh Research Center, the two most popular applications, should not surprise anyone, are YouTube and Facebook. And that's kind of interesting. And again, those are owned by sort of major corporations, uh Facebook, Meta, and um um uh YouTube Google. And uh so that they have an interest in sort of what they create and sort of the the algorithms, and the algorithms have bias, the algorithms have bias of the you know, engineers and the programmers who created them, and there is this effort to really engage us, and that's part of what I think it's also connected to this idea of digital distraction, and when you're at restaurants and you see people can't put their phones down, and this might even happen to us. It's all a part of this that the more we're on it, you know, we're we're kind of giving uh away part of ourselves, I think, in a way, because we're taking away from sort of what we're seeing at the moment to really engaging with this platform that's making money off of our engagement. So, in my view, the the biggest uh issue here and sort of how they've developed is really uh how they work uh to kind of uh work on our own interests. And that might be a good thing if you're looking looking for something. But what's happened is that because we're in such a divided partisan environment right now, um, depending on what your political leanings are or what your interests are, you could look at the same exact event and get very different, have a very different perspective on it because of what you're getting through your social media feed. Because it's showing you what you want, what you believe, and you're not getting that other perspective, which could be really helpful in your own critical thinking. So uh in my in my from my perspective, that to me has been the biggest change. I think it's It's it's probably more of an evolution. Um and as we've seen recently, there's now there was a time when there were they were talking about trying to put some restrictions, for instance, on the uh um the sharing of disinformation and misinformation, and that's really changed. Things have really, you know, opened up in a way where there are less uh guardrails for that kind of information. So that's just something we have to think about in our own engagement.

Babette Faehmel: 20:27

Oh yeah, absolutely. I'm surprised though that it's Facebook. I would have thought TikTok. Um but because I know, I know. Isn't Facebook for, like, old people like us?

Thomas Mackey: 20:38

Yeah. I was really surprised by that too. And this is the I was just in advance of this, I would I just wanted to double check this on my own. So I was looking at some of these factor sheets, and I just find these data points really interesting. Um so I, I can look up here where uh so according to this again, this is the Pew research, they do a pretty good job. It's it's very focused on the US. That's one limitation of this one. Um so ages 18 to 19, um YouTube and then Facebook. Which one do you think is the third one?

Babette Faehmel: 21:20

So uh Facebook, YouTube, um, Instagram?

Thomas Mackey: 21:24

Instagram and then TikTok.

Babette Faehmel: 21:26

And then TikTok.

Thomas Mackey: 21:27

Okay, according to this one, and this is this is 2025. Okay. But I just found it interesting because um I think there is an emergence of TikTok, and uh the way that TikTok works is also influencing how these other systems work. Because TikTok is really about sort of short uh pieces. You've noticed Facebook has really embraced that. Yeah, you're starting to see more and more reels, for instance, on Facebook, on Instagram. So as these other sort of uh applications you know enter the market, they're definitely having influence. So TikTok is up there, it's getting up there. We'll see how that uh continues to develop. I I find it fascinating, sort of how the different technologies work and the influence they have on people. But yeah, it is kind of interesting that Facebook has maintained that lead. Although I think years ago Facebook was always number one. Yeah, now YouTube is number one.

Babette Faehmel: 22:20

Right. But it's also this short um this short form content is just um, I don't know, it's like it's like it's like digital crack. It's like you want to like have more and like watch more, but it doesn't really nourish you or like educate you or do anything. I mean, I don't know. Like um I get fed the same kind of Facebook shorts again and again and again. And I have, I don't think my my my my life has been enriched by a single one of them. But anyway.

Thomas Mackey: 22:49

There's something about it, right? That just it happens to everyone. You can get into these reels and just go from one to the other and forget what you were originally looking for.

Babette Faehmel: 22:57

Exactly.

Thomas Mackey: 22:58

And that's part of what's happening, I think to people. And people have trouble putting their phones down for that reason.

Babette Faehmel: 23:04

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, even I'm I'm pretty conscious of what they are doing to me and how this is manipulating me, but I'm still I keep clicking. It's just like compulsion. Um, so how how about the creators, the filmmakers in the room? What what's your like what's your like has your has your do you do you see a similar relationship to social media when you're not in your creator filmmaker role? Is it is it hacking your brain too, or have you removed yourself from the algorithmic manipulation?

Bhawin Suchak: 23:39

Well, I mean, I think I think the biggest thing, and a lot of you guys touched on some great points. Um, you know, I mean shout out to you, they don't even have it. Um because I think the thing that we have to re realize, you know, it's like I'm you know, I'm someone that grew up without phones or any of that kind of stuff. And it's like we used to be outside, you know, we used to be interacting with other people in a way that's different, and I feel like what social media is doing is it's taking the one thing that we have control over, which is our attention and our time. And it's capturing that time and it's using it to make money for them. You know what I mean? These are multi, not million, billion dollar corporations. Meta, TikTok is I mean, and these are these are companies owned by some of the most evil people in the world, right? And so, and and and you know, and what's happening in in this particular country right now with this, you know, with this Trump regime, it's like you know, they're part of this billionaires club that's trying to really take over the planet and utilize its resources. And who knows what their plan is. Maybe they're building some colonies on some other planets, but they don't seem to have care for this, you know, for for our planet. And and I think one of the things about it that's really troublesome is the way that it is rewiring the way people think and how they interact. And I think, you know, from my creative practice as a filmmaker, you know, I believe that the number one thing that I build upon is relationships, right? You know, being in community, working with people, like being in space with artists, that's the most exciting part about being an artist. It's not the hardest part and the most annoying part is the fact you gotta promote, like you said, and sometimes utilize social media, and you feel like it's a way that you, as an artist, need to be on there constantly to promote, you know. And so, you know, for me, about probably about six months ago, I downloaded this really great app uh called Opal, which is not it's a kind of an anti-social media app because it actually blocks the apps on your phone. Oh, but it's called Opal. And and it's free. And and so I since then it's like I realize, like a lot of us have said, these platforms, and I have a I have a really close friend of mine that works at Google actually. Um and it's funny because whenever I hang out with him, I'm reminded that the way his phone is is set up is that he has to swipe at least 10 different pages to get to the social media apps, and he doesn't even have them ever open or accessible because he's like, I know I design these things, and we're we are designing all these apps, whether it's YouTube now, it's Instagram, TikTok, all of them, to be completely addictive. That is what they want. You you have to build these things to be addictive, and also a reminder that they're making money off of our content. You don't get paid to just post on. I mean, obviously, you can get like these you know brand deals, and you can be an influencer, whatever that means, and and make money off of your social media posts to a certain degree, but it's all free content. That's why it's free because they're monop... they're monetizing and monopolizing our content for their means. Like if you go on Instagram nowadays, one out of every three posts is maybe like a post from a friend or someone that you know. The rest of it is just you gotta scroll through all the advertising because they're constantly listening to you on your phone. What you type in there gets put into the algorithm. And so I think that's the kind of challenge. It's kind of like this battlefield you gotta always navigate, and that's how I feel about it. And I got to a point where I was like, I just don't want to do this anymore. It's exhausting, you know. And I think for young folks, they don't have yet the capacity to manage and self-regulate those kinds of things, right? So, I mean, if you have anybody who, you know, if you have you have kids, you know what I mean, you know how hard it is, you know what I mean? And so my kids are now young adults, they're in their mid-20s and they grew up without phones, yeah, you know, and and they still struggle with that, you know. And and I think a lot of young people I hear about, oh, I I just quit all my I just quit, and then they're back on a week later, or they delete all their posts and then they repopulate it after, you know, and it becomes this kind of like badge of honor now. It's like, oh, I'm not on social media, and it's like you feel all proud of yourself because it's like a battle to not be on. That's why I'm like, man, you are like you're a warrior. Like, how are you surviving? You know it's like, but then you think about it, it's like your life is so much more richer when you're with other people. And honestly, like my again, like practice as a filmmaker, like I love that to me, the creative part is not in where the social media aspects are. I just go on there quickly, and maybe I'm I'm posting or seeing what's happening as far as like almost like like the marketing side of it, you know, and being able to kind of know that kind of stuff. But there's just the incessant scrolling. I mean, it is really affecting our brains, you know, in a very negative way. And I think the big things that some people touched on here is like first thing in the morning doing that. And you think about it, you're all of a sudden exposed to millions of thoughts and and and thought patterns that take you all sorts of different directions that you have no control over. You know, and and the whole intention is to keep you on that app so you can buy shit and you can keep being on there. And so I think part of it is we have to reclaim our attention because we have control over that. Yeah, and that's our time, that is a valuable resource. We cannot just give that away so that Mark Zuckerberg can make another billion dollars this year because that's what he's doing off of off of our off of our backs. Yeah, you know, and so for me, it's like the positive stuff for me is these there are some cool micro communities online, which I definitely feel, you know, like film resource groups or small communities, and and I think we can build communities, but we have to also always understand that kind of like feeling that we have to be, oh I gotta know what's going on. Like, you gotta take a break, you know. And and it and honestly, like this whole idea of like social media detoxing and it becomes like this thing where people, it's like a hard job, I'm gonna, you know, and they post, I'm not gonna be on social media, like it's this big thing. It's like we have to just normalize being off of that. Like, I don't ever really honestly, I barely ever post on it anymore. I haven't think I posted much in like three last three, four months. And if I go on social media, it's very quick because I'm looking for something, or I'm visiting a group that I'm a part of because I'm looking for some kind of information from that community, you know. Um, but it's tough, you know, and it's it's it's designed to do that. And I think, you know, you think about TikTok, you know, they really figured out a way to do those quick fire things, and everybody's adopted that because again, it's all about attention control, you know. And I think that when you think about the rise of political division, and I think there's always been division, obviously, but you think about the rise of autocratic countries that have undermined democracy and people's agency politically, that is that I guarantee that arc is parallel with the rise of social media around the world because it's not we gotta think about we're thinking about the US context, there's other countries that entire political movements are built online that are completely fake, you know. And and now I um I started to read a little bit about AI, and I mean, you know, AI, don't even get me started on AI and film, but but AI, you know, there's estimates that between 30 to 50 percent of all content on social media is actually generated by AI bots. So people are just chatting to bots, you know what I mean? And what what's the impact of that as we kind of dive so deep into that? And then we're not gonna talk about the environmental impacts. So, anyways, I'll stop there because it's so much, but you know, I think the positive, I will just lean on that for a quick second, is is and I think you know, you probably can relate who whoever here is artists, is just having your group of people. But then my thing is I'm always trying to figure out how do we see each other and activate each other in real life too. You know, so we have these tangible relationships that we actually build offline as well. Yeah, you know, but I think it's great. There there are some great aspects that connect with people that you can connect with, but I'm always now trying to think about how do I offline those conversations to, you know, even like email newsletters or Substack or other places where it's not just bombarding my brain.

Babette Faehmel: 31:14

Well, yeah, there is also a difference between us seeking out information and us..

Bhawin Suchak: 31:19

And the mindless...

Babette Faehmel: 31:20

being served information like for reasons um that we have actually like no insights into, like, why is this now showing up on in my feed? Um, and then also this like I think you were like referring to the scroll, right? The this infinite scroll. It's actually fascinating. Um, like the the guy who, like some kind of like Silicon Valley engineer who designed or "invented " the infinite scroll, um, like very soon had regrets. Like it's kind of like an Oppenheimer moment, like, oh my god, what have I unleashed upon the earth? And he um like a lot, I also read that a lot of like of these social, what is it, Silicon Valley engineers are actually taking their kids off social media. Yeah, yeah. And it's um and also, I mean, a couple of times we we said, like, okay, so we spend energy, we pay with our attention, so that's the monetizing aspect of it. And then we have used like a couple of terms like from like addiction terminology, right? Because we can't get off and we have to detox. Well, if we have to detox, then there was a toxin first, right? And it's kind of like we seem to be, we seem to understand what's happening, and we are on. Like we are still returning, and like we may be sometimes like not but there are not many Elijas who are um social media conscientious objectors. Uh Prince.

Prince Sprauve: 32:43

And you guys have said a bunch of great things, so I'm not gonna repeat all of the great things that you said, but uh what I will add to the conversation, I think for me, some of the cons that I've seen come out of it is that students and people's attention span and their ability just to pay attention. But I think the biggest thing for me is what people are willing to do for that attention, right? The length that people are willing to go to expose you, to, to, to argue all on, to fight, to create controversy. And I think that's a major problem because it is like now you can have a really great project and people are not even paying attention to it because it's not creating no controversy or it's not creating no drama. Yeah. You know, a couple of weeks ago I have a movie that I have that recently got on Tubi, and uh I made this post because I, you know, I just wanted to see because I was I've been posting about it, and I know people have been going to watch it, and I said, I'm gonna create a controversial post just to see, right? And then at the end, I'm gonna plug in that I have the movie on Tubi and I have a movie on Roku, right? And exactly what happened, I got almost 15,000 views in 24 hours because people thought it was some type of drama. And it really just proved my point because people are not interested in what you really do well. I think there are people, there are groups of people out there that are really interested, but more people on social media are more interested in the drama aspect of it and um really creating a bunch of controversy around it. The other thing is for me that it's a biggest con is that people are less creative. Yeah. You know, when when when I didn't have social media, you know, growing up, you know, doing filmmaking up at the high school, we had to do everything from scratch. I mean, we had tape decks, you know, we had to capture in real time. It wasn't no SD cards around, it was none of that stuff. So you had to do everything that you really wanted to do from the ground up. Now, because everything is so quick and everything is about getting content out, everything is so rushed. You know, if you look at the movies now today, you look at movies from back then, it's just two different. I don't even I don't even like watching movies today. You know, I'm constantly still watching the movies that from the 80s and 90s and even sometimes even further than that, and even early 2000s, because they put a lot of time into the story. So now we have all of these tools to create all of these cool things, but we don't have enough tools to really dive into how to create a good story. Yeah. Right? And how do we capture an audience based off the story? When you had plot classic movies that was coming out from Spikely and, you know, and Marsh Korschese and, you know, different directors that was coming up, those movies was epic. And sometimes the movies was three hours long. And we sat and we watched them. You know, James Cameron with Titanic, we watched those movies for three hours long. Now you'd be lucky if somebody even wants to watch a movie for 60 minutes or 30 minutes. You know, so that's you know, you know, those are some of the cons. I think for me, I've had to say and make an intentional choice that I'm not gonna let it use me. I'm gonna use it, right? And I'm gonna use it. So now when I'm on, I'm not, I'm on with a purpose. All right, I'm not on just to be checking what everybody else is doing. Honestly, I really don't care what everybody else is doing unless it has something to do with me, you know? And I think that's part of the problem is that we haven't been taught how to use it. We were just given this powerful tool and then expected just to magically, you know, know how to use it. And then what makes it worse is that a lot of the parents, we didn't want to use it because a lot of the parents were scared of it. But the kids learned it before the parents, and they figured it out, and then they figured it out for what their use was. And and it gave everybody a voice. And I don't think everybody needs to have a voice because some people's voices are just ridiculous. I just don't understand some of the craziest stuff. I mean, I would never have known on social media if social media didn't exist. I know somebody that gets paid just to show their toes, and I'm like, I'm in the wrong industry. You know what I'm saying? Like, I need to go get my feet done or something. But my but my my thing is is like we need to get to the point where we are using social media to our advantage. And it starts by building strategy. You gotta start by understanding, like, it's not that I can't be on social media, it's just that I have to figure out how it works for me. Yeah. And not and not be and not being concerned with what everybody else is doing. I'm a filmmaker. I need my own audience. As a matter of fact, it's in my uh uh uh um it's in my benefit to have my own audience, especially being an independent filmmaker, because I don't want to go through any middlemen, right? I I like to own my own films, I like to own my own products. And without having an audience, it's very hard uh to get uh people to get buy-in investors and different people of that nature. So I've learned to say, you know what? Let me back up, let me figure out how I would like to use this because I'm not gonna let it use me. I'm gonna use it to my advantage. I just started a podcast called Talk to Me Nights Podcast. And I'm I this year I'm saying, listen, I can't just be a director, I gotta be a content creator. And I just started releasing all these reels. So all these reels that everybody's just scrolling over, you're gonna see me in those reels, right? Because you're scrolling and you're doing it, so you might as well see me. So if I'm gonna be on there, I'm gonna make money and I'm gonna figure out, because you're already making money off me, all right? So I'm gonna figure out how to make money off you as well, all right? And I don't mind you making money off me if I'm not making no money, because business is a transaction, right? It's okay for you to make money off me, but it's not okay for me to not make money off you. If I'm not making money off you, that's the problem. Okay, I I need to be making some money off of you. And I think for the most part, if we really sit down and really understand what is our group, what is our interest, what do we want to, you know, and we can even inform our own algorithm that works for us. Like there are things I just block out, I don't want to see. Like if I see somebody on social media talking crazy, I just either unfollow them or unfriend them. I don't want to forget, right? I don't like I just don't want to see this in my feed. I need stuff that's gonna feed me every day to be a better person. And so in this times, too, I do take breaks. Like sometimes I will go off for a you know a month or two. You know, I'll just dive off and get back to reality. The last thing I'll say is that it does create a false reality for a lot of people. It makes people's lives look so much better than what it actually is. You know, you be thinking this person's life is so great and so good, and they got all these things going, and it's not like that when you get up close and personal, and I've seen this so many times in films. You be thinking this filmmaker is like doing all this crazy stuff and being on, and not the next thing you know, it's not even your project. This wasn't even your project. You you just happen to be there. You got invited, but this is not even your project, but you're posing it like it's your project. And and I think that's a major problem. I think like today, if I wanted to be a real estate agent, I can go take a couple pictures in front of a couple houses, shake a few hands, have a few documents, start an Instagram and look like it and really engage people like I'm a real estate agent. And that's a problem because when we were growing up, like he looked like Balwan said, you had to be verified outside.

Babette Faehmel: 39:47

Yeah.

Prince Sprauve: 39:47

Like when you came outside and you wanted to be that guy or you wanted to be that person, people verified, like, oh yeah, that's the that's the person. Now you don't have to be who you are in real life. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's a problem. Yeah, it's a big problem. That's a major problem because it's causing a real true identity crisis. Because people are not being truly who they are. They're creating these personas that fit for social media and it don't match who they are in real life. I want to wear big necklaces or I want to have all this jewelry or have all this money next to my ear. And it's like, you're getting evicted, right? That's a false reality. And what it does is it sends a false message to the young people because they're looking for the you know quick way to get to the top and there is no shortcut.

Babette Faehmel: 40:37

Right. But you know, it's also kind of like boring me, some of the things he was saying. I mean, I get it, like um I'm gonna work, I'm gonna make it work for me because it is making money for me and stuff like that. But I also think that by bringing in, or by by keeping, but by by keep trying to keep to like okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna rephrase that. By trying to make money and to keep making money off of these tools, right? Aren't we then perpetuating the problem? Because I mean, yeah, sure, um, I want to be in the one in the driver's seat, and I want to be the one who has the agency and the power, but I also I don't think like the commercial aspects should be everywhere, right? I mean, like there are there are also, I don't know, like I mean, there's all this extractive industry and all the like environmental issues involved with social media. And like, I don't, I don't necessarily um know if I agree that we need to join them in order to know.

Prince Sprauve: 41:33

No, no, I don't think that we need to join them. I think it's a choice, right? On on what your particular path is, right? What worked for you and what doesn't work. Everything is not a one-size-fit all. No. For me as a creator, it works, right? You know, you know, it works for me because what I've been able to do independently because of social media, I would have never gotten Hollywood. They would have never took the chance on me. They would have never gave me the investments that I needed if people didn't see my work, right? So, so so that's what I mean by that is that is like you can go ahead and create your own platform as well, you know, as well. That's if you want to go in that lane, right? And and you know, that's a big ask to do when really the engine has already been built. It's like, okay, the engine has already been built, it's here, it's not going anywhere. So you have a choice. You can figure out and strategize how to use it, or you can strategize a whole 'nother way for yourself, right? And create your own platform. You can say, you know what, there's enough tools around for me to create my own social media. And I want to be able to have a community of people that end up following me and believe in the things I believe in. That's not my path. You know what I'm saying? My path is a filmmaker, and I want to get a message to the world through film, and I'm not looking at it right. So, so I so I totally agree with what you're saying to some degree, but I also think it's just about everybody's individual path. Some people, it's been very successful for. You know, some people have made millions off of this, right? And those are some of the positives, right? For me, I think it's very important for filmmakers because I think a lot of times with Hollywood and film being so gated, you gotta think about how many filmmakers would not probably be discovered if it wasn't for social media. Right? How many people have they kept out of the film industry?

Babette Faehmel: 43:18

Right.

Prince Sprauve: 43:18

Right? Not because you're not good, not because you can't tell the best story, not because you can't make a great film, but because you just don't fit in a club. That's just the way to go. When I went to France and I went to the Cannes Film Festival, I mean, you're talking about everything being gated, right? I I went there where a producer, he's a producer from Hollywood, and he was just giving me the rope. So, like, you literally can't get in nothing. You can pay to get into the actual festival, but to get into the private parties where everything is at, you can't get into nothing. They got security and you have to be invited in. So it's a club. It's not something that people can just walk into. So what do you tell the people that want to get into the film industry but can't, don't, don't have a path? Right? Yeah, you can go to school, but how far is school gonna get you? School is network, right? School is that is big on network, but it's still not gonna guarantee you that you're gonna make it into the film industry and have a successful career. And there are people that have gone to school, film school, and been successful, and there's a lot of people that went to film school and that are not as uh successful. There are people like myself who didn't go to film school, and I've had a great career. I've had a better career than people in the industry. And I make more money than a lot of people that's in the industry right now, and I get to pick my own projects. I select, I build my own projects from the ground up. And I think that's what social media, those are the positives that I feel like social media has had. But if you don't know how to use social media and you're allowing it, well, they have our brain rigged anyway. You know what I'm saying? Like they do, they have the algorithm on our brain. But if you don't make a conscious decision to say, I'm not gonna give in to this, I'm gonna discipline myself in a certain way that I'm choosing. Like when I get up in the morning, the first thing I want to do is pray. The first thing I want to do is read. The first thing I want to do is see what my kids are doing, waking them up, checking in with them. That's intentional.

Babette Faehmel: 45:08

Yeah.

Prince Sprauve: 45:09

That's me making a conscious decision to say, I'm not gonna allow this to determine and dictate how I run my life.

Babette Faehmel: 45:17

Right, right. And I think, Tom, um the um with the meta-literacy concept, I think um there's a big emphasis on the role of the creator and responsible use of the .. . the tools that you have at your disposal, but also be, I don't know, like, yeah, cre... create information, create art, and and but also there's a I think uh quite a big emphasis on ethics and responsibility.

Thomas Mackey: 45:43

You uh described it perfectly, and I think I think what we've been hearing today is in many ways uh meta-literacy uh uh in in action. Um, because I I think that what we just heard too is this is real self-awareness of how one can leverage these technologies. The idea of a meta literacy might sound fancy or something, but the meta is really about metacognition, which is really thinking about your own thinking. So it's being self-aware in these environments, and it is intended to shift the focus from really what we've been talking about from just being a consumer of information where you're just taking it all in, uh, to be really being a producer. Yeah, producer is just a higher level of responsibility because you really have to think about what you're creating. Uh you you are consuming to some extent, and that you're kind of taking all this information in, but you're doing research, uh, you're looking at that information in a critical perspective, but you're really thinking about from a meta-literacy perspective, what it is that you're producing for a particular environment and and ultimately how you're contributing to your community. So there's this focus on being civic minded in these kinds of spaces, which I which is which is intentional because another thing I think that has been lost with the social media is that there's they can be such negative and contested uh spaces where people are really uh interacting in in negative ways. So if someone's producing something, it's really not just for their own use, but they're really thinking about what kinds of contributions they're making. And I think that's what filmmakers are doing, right? That a filmmaker gives a lot of thought to what their contribution is, right? So that's what meta-literacy is intended to do. And especially in this environment, as we can tell, it's it's a really complicated space. It's really, it's really changed over time. And we have all of these different tools. So, how can we make the best choices about the tools that we're making? How can we really articulate our voice in these spaces so it has impact in a positive way? Um, how can we sort of challenge some of the negative aspects of it while also ultimately being able to create and produce using the wide range of tools that we have?

Babette Faehmel: 47:54

Right.

Thomas Mackey: 47:55

Um, this idea of uh AI came up, and I know this is something too, it's gonna be like a whole other topic, but it does relate because you asked about sort of the evolution of social media, and and this is clearly one of one of the big changes. And it really, too, we've seen it with you know, the a lot of people are asking questions about algorithms and the impact of algorithms, but now we have AI, uh, which is having an another layer of really huge impact on how these systems work. Uh AI is really not, you know, you can go to an AI tool, but a lot of the a lot of sort of AI is being built into the systems that we already have. It now, you know, it can help us write a post, it can help us create images. Um and I think that um from a meta-literacy perspective, the idea is that uh you're always thinking about you're gaining a kind of meta-literate uh mindset so that you can be prepared for any kind of environment, that you can adapt to these changes, so that someone now who's entering an AI environment that's also very social can can apply that sort of critical thinking perspective and can also be thinking about what they're doing in these spaces and what they're learning and how they're interacting with other people. So I think it's a very common sense kind of approach to literacy, and it really is focused on the individual, how they're becoming uh more self-aware in these spaces. One thing I want to do, you know, again, not to kind of shift gears too much, but I do think it relates with the idea of the other, I think the biggest concern with AI is uh how it could potentially take away our agency. Because you had mentioned earlier this point of agency, and you know, it you know, we want to be able to write and think, and there's this really strong connection between writing and thinking, but if we rely on it too much, you know, do we are we what are we giving away in the same way that we've the panelists have talked about talk about what we're giving away to these systems? But you know, we want we want to be able to use AI, definitely. We want to be astute in how we use it because it's not going away. But I would say that it should be more of a writing assistant and not a writing replacement. Yeah, we really don't want it to replace our thinking, we want it to really assist us in our thinking and help us to be creative. So that's that is a I think a big sort of change that we're gonna be seeing more and more of.

Babette Faehmel: 50:16

And I think it also has a direct um like relation to what Prince was saying about like you would want to talk, we want to tell your stories, and you have stories to tell. And and um, and I mean there are stories of communities that need to be told that are not picked up necessarily by Hollywood. Now, I mean, I read that um AI is already replacing some entry-level like positions in in the film industry, and those entry-level positions, like when they are being replaced by AI, it basically means that like traditional knowledge, like old knowledge, is kind of like replacing the young blur that could come in and introduce their ideas and their stories into the industry. And then it can potentially really shrink the the array and the range of perspectives that is being that is being like shared and is being produced and stuff like that. And you have that everywhere. I mean, yeah, AI grabs content from like okay, large language models grab content from the internet, but not all human knowledge is on the internet, right? There are so many, so much community knowledge that is that is not digitized. And where's that gonna go, right? And who tells those stories? So, um, Elijah.

Elijah Olivieri: 51:23

Yeah, I do think the top on the topic of AI, because uh that's very interesting to me because um it's it's a very it we're still in its infancy, realistically. So a lot of big companies and um are really like forcing the use of AI um because we're pouring so much money onto it, it's like probably comparable to like the amount of money we put on um when we were when we were racing to the moon. Like um AI is like this um emerging technology. I was I was trying to look up uh yeah, yeah, the uh Webster word of the year of 2025, uh slop. I don't know if anyone heard of it, but slop uh referring to like uh well verbatim, digital content of low quality that's produced uh usually in quantities by means of artificial intelligence, meaning that you know I they got it down to a science using AI. Um it's what Prince said, like um the the quality of the content is like um getting worse. I as you scroll, uh just you can hear AI voices, the the the the TikTok AI voices. Uh and you can and even in my uh even in my field I'm interested in, you can see like a you can see like a a big emergence of lack of competency. I I'm I'm glad we're not holding back here because there's like a huge big lack of competency when it comes to um like programming and knowing your stuff. I've I had like I I go backwards and read books that were made in like the 90s on like different programming languages that people don't care to look out for because why should I need why why should I need to know this trivia? A part of being a professional in my space is actually knowing stuff off the top of your head. But uh I I I'm guessing like a lot of like this AI stuff is uh it I don't know. I my point is that it's it's in more space than the creative one, and like um, and it goes back to the the problem I was saying, um like our solutions are we're rediscovering solutions in a worse way to and to force like technologies like AI and stuff like that. Graphics is getting worse, uh our algorithms are getting uh worse by consequence, and I don't know. It's something I do feel strongly about because it is very adjacent to what I'm studying on. So...

Babette Faehmel: 53:54

It's it's also a really big dilemma. I mean, like a couple of times now we have said things like, Well, this technology is already here, they already figured out how to hack our brain, and like it's just here. Like, so we need to make we need to use it and we need to make use of it, and we need to use it to our advantage. And I part of me is totally in agreement. But then it's also like this, like I mean, Elijah, you said you were old-fashioned. Like, I'm probably even more old-fashioned because I'm like, really? Do we really need to? Like, is is it is it really like that? Because it's like it that's an ideology, that's kind of like a mental model. Technology is here now, it must be used. But does it? I mean, it has really like especially AI. I was just um, I was I was just reading that like an AI, like AI depends on these like data, what is it, the server farms, the data centers, and they need water for cooling. And um, there are a lot of these places being set up, like in like what we what some people like what used to be called the third world, like so the global south. Um, and there you already have like communities who are not who don't have a lot of access to resources. And to cool, what was it? The statistic that I saw was to cool one of these big server farms. Um, it's basically you use 169 liters of water per second, right? And that's just like in in in communities that already don't have enough water. So I just I don't know, do we have to use it?

Elijah Olivieri: 55:26

I don't think we have to use it. It's also, I mean, this is kind of getting off topic from the social media thing, but it's also making things like more expensive. Like people, uh, well, I don't know if anyone knows, but personal computers, you can't even build your own personal computer anymore because parts are literally getting like three to four, ten times more expensive. Things that used to cost eighty dollars for just putting storage in your computer are like upwards to four hundred to eight hundred dollars. It's it's ridiculous. It's it's absolutely ridiculous. And yeah, our I my my generation is definitely aware of it, but uh it's not even up to us. Like, we're we're I don't feel like we're even participating, we're forced to participate because it's it's just so much money that gets flown flown into these uh technologies.

Babette Faehmel: 56:15

All right, as a historian, I have to totally disagree. I do think it is up to us. I mean, there have been people who boycotted things and who just refused to participate, right? I mean, I don't know. Yes, I mean, Prince, I also agree with you. Like, it's up, it's up to the like it's in it's individual decision. It's a decision you make for your family and for your community. But uh you like what is the basis on which we make these decisions? Like is it is a personal empowerment or should it be like civic responsibility and like community responsibility? And like we are we are we are operating in a in a in a in a global community, in a in a national community. I I don't know. I I just like I don't know, maybe I'm my maybe it's my age. I I want I want there to be more ethical thinking in in all our actions, including my own. And it's not always easy, but what what kind of like I don't know. But um, what do you think?

Ashleylucie Lumbala: 57:11

Yeah, I think that we talked a lot about the loss of critical thinking, the loss of creativity, the attention economy. That one strikes me a lot, especially with what Prince said. It's like they make a whole lot of money from even if you're not a content creator, just because I'm scrolling, I'm viewing the ads, I'm waiting to skip the ad, it's a lot of money being made from our attention, from our time. Because you guys talked about time, you guys talked about attention, and um I I realize that at some point, but I know a lot of people don't because when you're on social media, it's like a part of you is a part of your brain is dead. You're just looking and scrolling, you're like, oh, this is interesting. Okay, like you just said, it's it's like you're doing it compulsively. You know that it's you know that it's like rotting you. You know, you know that you're some people are totally aware, but you can't stop. It's compulsive. It's like, okay, I'm going there, okay, I'm doing this, I'm doing that. Okay, I need to stop. I'm not stopping, I'm continuing. And I that that is what brings up the loss of critical thinking. We can't think for ourselves anymore. There's no um, oh, it doesn't exist. And also for artists, the loss of creativity. You guys said you guys talked about how um there they're there's the loss I'm gonna rephrase this in the film, in the film uh making and everything, the entry roles, everything has been taken over by technology or AI. It's like and now my question is like, how do we counteract all this? We talked about, we talk about, we know it's happening. Um you said you don't think that, okay, in our generation, you don't think that we can but then I think you're right. I think you I think we can boycott it. I think it's something that because in social media there's always movements. There's always um what was that? What was there was this big movement that happened? Oh, body positivity, uh what else? There's always movements, and um, even if sometimes they start little, they end up growing. So we could mentally make a movement like, hey guys, do you think this is actually a good thing? Yeah. But then it would have to come from like people that actually have a lot of views, a whole lot of yeah, because it can't come from somebody that doesn't create a platform for ourselves, right?

Babette Faehmel: 59:26

Like SEAT Center? Like, teaching movie makers? YouthFX in Troy, right? That kind of thing, like taking like charge? Yes, like step into your power?

Ashleylucie Lumbala: 59:37

That can happen. Like creating creating platforms, using influencers, something like that. Because I know movements work. I do. One like that though that's something that I know happens, especially with the body positivity, because I don't remember it was such a huge thing. Um I'm I forget the year, but I know. So are you guys thinking how can we counteract social media like that? harmful impact because it's not only on our the ways we the way we see things it's not only on our critical thinking it's not only on creativity it's also on our mental health it's also on our health itself and the quality of the information we consume I like I think uh t Tom talked about how we just consume everything that we see so it's not uh especially like news news and and and media news the things that actually happen in real life but if your algorithm your algorithm only shows you right what they want you to see or what you have been looking for your algorithm doesn't show you the other part of the news yeah so how can that be counteracted how can we how can how can we like whose responsibility is it is it off the consumers is it off the it' s definitely not the people that make the social media because they know where they're going to so it's I think it's our responsibility to know what we can do to change the way social media is used. And I want to ask Tom if we could maybe force or yeah maybe maybe if we could maybe force or incentive like incentivize people to meet like in real life again because some of these things like this is something that we're talking about it's not something that you see on social media every day. This is because we decided to talk about media like we we sat down together and said okay what are we gonna talk about next maybe media and this is how this topic came up to be but it's not something you see on social media every day. So what could be done? How can we counteract the way we use social media?

Babette Faehmel: 1:01:34

Or how how it takes advantage of us and our how it um monopolizes our attention and...

Ashleylucie Lumbala: 1:01:41

Yes

Babette Faehmel: 1:01:42

... monetizes

Ashleylucie Lumbala: 1:01:43

yeah

Babette Faehmel: 1:01:43

and and all that kind of stuff?

Babette Faehmel: 1:01:45

Hmm. Well...

Thomas Mackey: 1:01:45

I think really what we're doing is is is is part of it is creating that critical awareness of how the systems work, how the algorithms work, how AI works and asking some questions about what it is we're seeing. A lot of times I think part of the problem is is the disinformation and the misinformation that's so easily created and shared in these spaces that really helps to divide people so I think if we just have open conversations about this and this is really what we try to do in our classes is really build that critical thinking perspective and also that self-awareness sort of what are your own biases going into these spaces? What are your own experiences and expectations? The the meta literacy model I mentioned the idea of metacognition which is kind of reflection basically but there's also an aspect of cognition which is sort of what we know uh and then there's this effective piece and the effective tends to be sort of the the parts of ourselves that are more like the emotional response to things or our motivations um and it really is kind of a connection of these different uh we we call them learning domains and the fourth one is behavioral which is kind of what we do. I think people so for instance the "affective"... I think if people investigate a little bit sort of like their own kind of emotional responses to some some things that we see online that's a big part of it. And that ultimately creates this awareness of about sort of ourselves and what we learn how we understand information. Yeah it's interesting too as this conversation was happening as as Babette was talking I was thinking you know she was saying well why are we even assuming that we need to to know this and it's funny because as an educator especially in digital media arts I'm always thinking okay how can I incorporate these new technologies into my classes but there is an assumption there, right?

Babette Faehmel: 1:03:40

Yeah

Thomas Mackey: 1:03:41

And I was thinking Babette that well maybe we need a class of sort of how not to use the technology and what would you do and how do you build how do you build community uh without without using social media and without using AI sort of what is that so I I think there's something interesting there about kind of resisting the technology and sort of maybe not using it. The idea that some of the ideas we've heard about detoxing and things like that. Believe me there are times when I just want to sort of you know go to the Adirondacks somewhere and not be connected and kind of just experience nature and kind of reflect in that way. But I have to admit I'm fully immersed in this this whole world and some of these questions and it seems it seemed kind of unavoidable to kind of engage with it. So that's what I would do. I I think that these kinds of conversations that we're having here as part of this podcast that that's really the way to do it and hearing hearing your perspectives too as people kind of living in this world who've grown up with this technology and hearing your own experiences that's what we need more and more of I think in our in our classes and really in society because I'm not sure if if we're getting these this kind of reflection um everyone's just kind of taking their position and you know listening to their feed watching their feeds and that's it. And so we have this huge kind of cultural divide I think right now in this country that's also very much a partisan divide. And one thing I'll say about that too again this is just from my own experience it's kind of interesting what's happening I think some in some ways people are detaching in different ways. What I've noticed is that people are trying really hard now on Facebook to not post anything political and I think people are just so overwhelmed now in terms of what they're seeing and what they're hearing and it's just kind of this onslaught which is intentional really to distract everyone but what I'm seeing is kind of a different formation of communities that are more about sort of that are more back to the basics. And this isn't always the case there are some people who are still posting sort of political things I'm not doing it as much because I feel like I would have to be posting constantly and then I'm kind of in that feed at where it's kind of controlling me and I and that that's why I'm resisting it. But it doesn't mean I don't have I'm not politically aware or that I don't want to say something. So it's it's kind of an interesting and I don't know if anyone else has experienced it I haven't really seen anyone really write too much about this but there seems to be a kind of detachment that's happening right now. And people people it's almost like getting back to the basics hearing about what you're doing personally but not talking about that political space which is so incredibly negative. Although I will say when when the No Kings rally ... it was the No Kings rally was very positive and that information about that did circulate on social media. So there's there's some ways where people are getting the word out and they're having like these moments of kind of letting it all out but I don't know has anyone else I don't know if anyone else has observed that in your own feeds where people are kind of detaching a little bit.

Babette Faehmel: 1:06:51

So um I I myself used to post a lot of political things just because I am a political person and it's kind of like what I teach and it's like something I very much I'm very much interested in. And I I remember um at some point I encountered like I don't know if it was a sub stack or a podcast or whatnot but just basically somebody talking about how this kind of involvement in civic um activities is completely pointless because by posting about politics we essentially just like share it with the people who are always like following what we are saying and they are not going to be surprised and most of them will probably agree. And whereas I I gain from it this like a sense of virtue or like a satisfaction but I'm not doing any good and if I wanted to be have an impact it would probably be more effective if I called my representative or went to a protest or went to a civic like community event or to a city council meeting stuff like that. And I felt kind of caught like yes I'm I'm doing this this is like my my way of virtue posturing here. And then I kind of stopped and then when I stopped I realized how much time I gain because right I mean time is is the is definitely a non-renewable resource and what I use my time for and to create meaning in community it's just like I don't know that's kind of like a a different kind of um like I don't know act of protest. It's also I don't know I mean also for the same reason like um as long as there is not a national boycott of of of any sorts I'm I'm also still going to use prime even though I know the the people behind it because that's time that I save that I can then use for other things that are more community generating. And so I don't know it's it's it's kind of it's it's it's it's a dilemma it's a big ethical um dilemma.

Ashleylucie Lumbala: 1:08:47

But before we continue with like everybody I want to know how you guys feel I just want to touch on two things that you said. I don't know if it's because uh maybe because you were both um professors but um you said you realized that you were not doing anything and that if you wanted to change you had to go out in the community. And then Tom also talked about open conversations self-awareness and letting our students know and maybe even said maybe making a new course or something like that. So they feel like in order for well this is what I understood from what you you said you feel like in order for us to change the way things work things should be happening in real life in the community talking to actual people and letting them know and I want to know if this is how each and every one of you feel or they are or do you know other ways or do you have other aspects of how um the change of the use in social media could be or do you think that it's gonna it's something that has to come from the community first that has to come from groupings like this or can it be actually done in social media or any other way?

Bhawin Suchak: 1:10:00

I mean I'll just say to counteract you know going back to that question. I mean I think I think it needs to be something that's taught in schools. I think media literacy that's something that I've always I've been teaching media literacy for over 20 years as an educator because you know the the control of media and messaging has always been in the hands of people who are very powerful and who have very clear political agendas that are not in our interest. I mean you look at what's happening with all these media acquisitions you know uh you know Netflix and Paramount and and Time Warner that you talk about the the the industry this is going to become even more tighter you think it's got hard to get in now wait till they start merging together and you instead of having three platforms to stream content that's acquiring content there's one and they all own each other and you know they're gonna streamline what content we have even access to and so I think it has to be taught in in young children. You know I mean you you see little kids know how to use social media you know and so we have to start teaching media literacy and and understand that it's as important as traditional literacy we grew up with because it is what is determining the culture it's what's determining politically what happens to us is affecting our actual lives you know I mean the the the ideas around like the rights to you know women's rights to their own bodies and the and the changing of laws these are all things that were seeded on social media the in the ideas the s the sort of thoughts around those things. And then you know it's like you go back to you talking about AI and stuff and it's like you know communities are standing up against the building of data centers and it is affecting our you go look at your electric bill your heating bill in the Northeast that's being affected it's clearly being affected because we're given tax breaks and write-offs to these massive corporations who have billions of dollars we're giving them tax breaks to build things that are killing us and taking away our water you know I'm saying and and part of it is the politicians that people have put in power and then decided that they don't have any say over are making these decisions. And I'll just say you know you might think okay we might not have a way to change the political landscape on a national level when it comes to like the president but your local elect you know elected officials you know we we have to get on back into being politically engaged on a local level and even if that means like you said going to city council meetings and creating spaces for people to have conversations that's where it starts you know it starts with this kind of stuff that you guys are doing as college students as young people choosing to kind of have a platform for yourselves and bring people in like us who are from the community and saying hey what do you guys think and then putting that out into the public sphere so people can hear that conversation and be like oh let's let's talk about these things because we might not be having those conversations because I'm too busy I'm running around and and so then I become kind of just a a a victim essentially of whatever's being thrown at me and don't think I have any political agency or or ability to change things. I mean the only thing that has ever really changed you know the world and fought back against power and consolidation has been people standing up and mainly young people you know and I think that's the whole thing where we think about how you know change can happen. It has to start from first educating each other on these topics. And I think we do have to kind of implicate our systems that we pay into we are the people that pay the taxes and and therefore we have a voice in those kinds of things. Now I understand how hard it can be to find that time but you have to at least stay informed to a degree where you can make an impact on it on a local level and then you can try to see how can that affect because I guarantee right now people are scheming in Schenectady trying to figure out what they're gonna make off of AI and all these kinds of things. We didn't ask for this you know what I'm saying it's like people didn't have a say this was handed to the top down I mean you look at the thing of you know people like oh you invest in the stock market the stock market is is is in a massive game that's being played by billionaires and millionaires and it's being right now boosted up by AI investment which who knows when that bubble is going to burst. You know the startup bubble bursted the internet bubble burst this is going to burst at some point and people are trying to cash in while they can off the backs of poor people off the backs of people from the global south people from countries that mainly look like us people of color you know I'm saying we're always the ones that are going to be victimized by these billionaires plans. And I think we do have a responsibility to educate each other so it's like my sphere of influence is like my people my friends my community but it's also the young people I work with. So every single workshop we teach every single program we teach we include media literacy into that program because we want you to be thinking critically about the ways and to me I make it almost like a game it's like you want to be control you know you want to be controlled by these massive corporations that are really out to get you at the end of the day or do you like you even said it's like how do you take back that power you know because we can even if it's little by little we have to start feeling what that feels like because that's the only way it builds momentum. Yeah you take one little bit of power back from whether it's your attention your time be like you know what I'm not gonna be on social media today and be like damn I feel really good. I talk to more people than I've talked to in weeks you know because that feels good you know it actually does help you feel better. So then you start building off of that you know challenge each other you know little ways of just kind of seeing and checking in on yourself. But I also think you know being outside is really important you know and I know it's hard because it's winter here we get this but being outdoors and just being with people and being out in the you know in in the community is really important. And so I think that's the whole thing is like really divesting from this idea that you gotta be on this thing is the first step. But then it is a responsibility of our politicians but specifically our education system. You know we have to teach this at a young age you know it's very critical the critical thinking piece and the media literacy piece.

Babette Faehmel: 1:15:46

Well information literacy is a SUNY General Education requirement so it needs to be infused everywhere. Yeah absolutely and I do think that there is some movement among young people like um and also what Tom said like you have to understand the way in which a system is constructed in order to kind of like um change it right I mean like you have to like know where to where to intervene. And so I just remember reading somewhere that like young people like change their whatever that their settings or whatnot of like multiple apps where they are no longer just like being exposed to other to the algorithm where they are like more selective and and who they are engaging with. And like so there is this awareness you understand how that system operates how how LLMs work how social media algorithms work and that's where you can begin to really like take agency back and and like take take power right and and get your voice in and I think that's that's a way to go. So um because we have actually maxed out our allocated time at the recording studio I just want to give like Sion and Prince and Elijah and Ashley a last last word because um like you have been silent for like a minute.

Babette Faehmel: 1:17:00

Any any other like last words last thoughts?

Sion Hardy: 1:17:05

I think um well I've just been thinking about how um through the evolu evolution of media and just like digital use and everything like that. In some ways I feel that it's regressed because I think about my childhood and using the computer and stuff like that. And me just being so excited about like the creativity that I had access to like there used to be websites where you could make animated videos by just typing in sentences and you could like create a scene and things like that. And there were like multiple websites for that where um I really felt excited about expressing my creativity and things like that. And then those websites got shut down and so now there's like not as much creative websites and platforms where children and young people can really exercise their creativity besides like TikTok and stuff like that. So I just feel like I I do worry about like the younger generation when it and them like growing up on TikTok and this kind of like performative platform where you have to like perform and give so much of yourself for attention and stuff like that. And yeah I do agree a lot about the taking away of creativity in a lot of different ways and I think that it's a personal agenda to kind of like I the word I'm thinking of is like dumb us down but I don't know if that's the word it's kind of just like limiting us especially with algorithms and how only certain things get seen. So a lot of people who are creative and talented don't really get seen because they don't know how to work the algorithm or like um go viral and things like that.

Babette Faehmel: 1:19:23

Well maybe they should go to SEAT Center and Youth FX and get some of those classes under their belt right as as a as a start but I hear you with the with the like fearing that like concerns about creativity and like limiting limiting creativity to because I mean now anybody who doesn't have a lot of like I don't know can use AI to make a video and so where where is that gonna go? It's just seems not really like a very rich experience.

Babette Faehmel: 1:19:52

But wait okay, Prince

Prince Sprauve: 1:19:54

I'm kind of like split in the middle a little bit. Yeah I I I have a um slightly different perspective But I do agree with what everyone said. I'm the type of person where I'm I'm no longer trying to fight the big corporations. I I'm on assignment. I feel like when God has assigned me to do something, you know, I always pray and ask God to send the people that's in my direction that I'm assigned to bring change to. And so I I've I've learned to, I've come to the point of embracing AI and taking it in and learning because I feel like I can't change something that I that I don't know nothing about. I don't know how to counteract if I don't even know what it is that it does and what it can do. Why are why are you? I'm more interested in understanding why are you flocking to it? What was it what does this have that makes you feel like so empowered? And so um, and I think figuring out AI and for me to understand how to incorporate filmmaking in AI and figure out those things is AI, because because AI I'm not really scared of. I'm more concerned about AGI. Right? That's what I'm more concerned about.

Babette Faehmel: 1:21:08

If that ever happens.

Prince Sprauve: 1:21:09

Um, it will happen. It's coming. Um, it's only a matter of time. Uh and I don't know if you guys ever seen the movie iRobot. You know, it was a bunch of you know, robots there, but there was one robot that was thinking like a human and being like a human. That's what I'm more concerned about, is when the robots can actually adapt and have a human cognitive um and I think that's scary because now you're talking about replacing real people. I mean, from professionals to educators and using AGI as a way to teach and do other things. That to me would be more concerning. But I also said, you know what, I'm gonna learn this and I'm gonna figure out a way to create an audience and teach it the way it needs to be taught. Um and I think that's really all I can do. Um and back to what you said about earlier about effect and change or whether or not I think life is not a one-size-fit-all. There is no one way to affect change. True. You know, there's been movements that's been started on social media that have been very effective. And without those movements, we wouldn't know about them. And then there's been people that say, you know what, social media may not be the route for me. I need to go down to the city council. I need to be more involved in my local community and be involved in that way. And I, or I may be saying, you know what, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be a bower, and I'm gonna be a prince, I'm gonna open up uh uh, you know, a program, and I'm gonna teach ideology and things of that I've learned that I feel like is gonna make you a better person. So I think there isn't one way of how to do it. It's your way of how you need to do it, because we're all unique in our own our own right. And I think this is uh a major topic. I think on the flip side, you know, social media has had a lot of positives. You know what I'm saying? There are a lot of positives that have come out of social media where, you know, I, you know, I don't want to sound like a Debbie Downer, like, oh, this is all bad. This is all bad. No, there are a lot of things, there are a lot of underdogs that have come up through social media that probably would have never got the opportunity to be who they are. And what I'm gonna tell you guys is this look, learn it, but don't let it consume you. I'm gonna tell you to be bold, right? Because you get because you're not gonna get a lot of people that's gonna stay in with you when you first started, right? But sometimes you got to let people catch up. You know, there are a lot of people in our history that we didn't praise them until years later, right? Because they were ahead of us, right? And you gotta be okay with not being okay. You gotta be okay with saying, this is what I'm standing firm in, this is what I believe, and this is what I want to do. But learn it. Because the truth is, not learning it is not really doing a service to anybody, to be honest with you. Yep, because if you don't know how to use it, you don't know how to tell people how not to use it. Because what people are gonna do is ultimately tell you how it's benefiting their life and every reason why they're using it, you know? And so with you having to edit being educated about it, I think it's important for us to really um, I wouldn't even say ban it, I would say balance it and channel the energy. You know what I'm saying? Like a lot of channeling of the energy sometimes is like, it almost is like a person that's like a child. If I tell my daughter no, oh yeah, no, she's gonna go do it. Yeah. If I tell her, you know, let me think about it, right? It it kind of switches it a little bit, right? Right. It doesn't, it doesn't, because the immediate no and immediate takeaway feels like you're taking something away from me that I feel is valuable. Right. But I think the idea of us being educators is really saying, how do I get you to have critical thinking around this? Because I'm not trying to take something that may benefit you. Who's to know? It may benefit you. You know, Kasana is a streamer. He has 14 million followers. You know what I'm saying? Like, I I wouldn't have known I I don't have 14 million um million followers, but he has it. And um, so that's the last things I will say about this, and just like be bold, man. Like, whatever it is that you want to do, you feel like you want to do, do it. But know what you're doing and know why you're doing it. Right. No, no, be intentional about it. Because I think sometimes when we have a closed-off mind, it really blocks what could be. Because now we're living in a time of endless creativity. There is like just because it was built that way, don't mean I have to build it that way. That means I can use this however I need to, you know, affect my story and tell my story. So that's what I would say. Learn your story, learn AI, learn what needs to be done, but don't let it consume you and and just bring change to the world like you're doing right now.

Babette Faehmel: 1:25:41

I think that's really good note to end on. Elijah, do you want to be bold and intentional and responsible? Is that a plan?

Elijah Olivieri: 1:25:51

Well, yeah, I think I think graphics programming, which is something I I'm doing, is very not talked about. There's not a lot of resources out there. Eventually, I want to go on to use my experience to teach other people about this uh niche. Um it's it's a niche of like diminishing returns, right? Like you've seen realistic uh you've seen realistic uh computer graphics and movies, um, Transformers 2008, Iron Man 2008. Things looked pretty real for a very long time, but for some reason it's just getting more and more expensive. It's it the the technologies we're forced to use is is at a price that's like not worth it. So my question is to counteract this stuff, because this bubble is forcing us, forcing companies to use uh use different hardware, to use different uh solutions. I to the idea of counteracting uh like AI, uh, I mean, how do we go about it, right? Because I I think and this conversation made me think about that. Like I I want to teach others eventually. Um but I I I've always had that in the back of my head, but at the end of this podcast, it made me really feel a strong responsibility uh towards that. So I'm now starting to think that a lot of people actually do know how it works. I mean, uh graphics is like adjacent to AI. It really it's really the same math skills you need. But so someone like me knows how it works literally under the hood, like just a fair amount. But do I feel like responsible to even like take any kind of action towards counteracting it? People people like know how to uh see see what's real or what's not. Uh people know that it's um you know, all the data is somewhere on earth and taking up space and water and have parts, but nobody I feel like the problem starts with like I don't think really generally people don't feel responsible to deal with it. Um so like why you know I if I put myself in the mind of uh just you know, if I put myself in my own mind, because I know how it works under the hood, why should it be my problem that we're all you were forced to use AI? What can I possibly do about it? And that's like the general mindset of everyone. Because that's why that's why I said earlier that I feel like it's out of our control. But I I genuinely after this, I generally do believe it is, but it just starts with like, yeah, we need to realize it is in our hands, and there there is something we could do about it. Uh, even if it's in your own lane, for me, that would definitely be uh, you know, graphics and showing, you know, yeah, having there be more resources out there and uh making making the space like um I guess more uh I I guess making more opportunities in that space by teaching. So um yeah, I I don't know that that that's why that's why I took apart from this uh podcast.

Babette Faehmel: 1:29:12

Yeah, no, and I think those are great takeaways, right? I mean, like responsibility and like understanding how it works and educating others. I mean, that's where where we can start, right? I mean, it's like we have to start somewhere. All right, fantastic. Well, thank you everyone. Um, I think this is a wrap. So um many voices won't call is made possible thanks to the generous contributions of the SUNY Schenectady Foundation. The recording of the podcast is supported by the School of Music, our student editor, Dylan Bruce, Professor Sten Isaacson, and then there's Heather Meaney, Karen Tansky, and Jessica McHugh Green who deserve credit for promoting the podcast. And thanks also go to Vice President of Academic Affairs Mark Meachem, College President Steady Moono, the Student Government Association, and the Student Activities Advisor. Please stay tuned for more episodes like this on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Thank you.

Thomas Mackey: 1:30:04

Thank you so much.

Babette Faehmel: 1:30:05

That was awesome. Thank you. Thank you very much. I mean, I and Prince, I am just as twisted and of two minds as you are about the whole thing. Because I mean, I am an AI Fellow for SUNY. I am supposed to talk about it and use it and educate others. But um, yeah, it's um and honestly, from personal experience, when you f when you make students use AI, like it's like an assignment, it loses a lot of its appeal very quickly.... [fade out]