Many Voices - One Call: Season Three/Episode Five: “Peace, Salaam, Shalom!" Connecting Across our Differences in a War-Ravaged World

On October 7, the Gaza-based terrorist group Hamas (an acronym for the Arabic name of “Islamic Resistance Movement”) launched a brutal invasion of Israel. Attacking kibbutzim and other Israeli settlements, Hamas fighters killed about 1,200 people, wounding thousands, and taking around 150 Jewish hostages. A day later, Israel attacked the Palestinian territory of Gaza with the goal of destroying Hamas. At the time of this writing, an estimate of 10,000 to 18,000 Palestinians have died, most of whom are reported as civilian deaths; medical care is at the brink of collapse, and food insecurity is rampant. 

This conflict seems remote and not a natural fit for this podcast. Undeniably, however, it has entered our communities, classrooms, SUNY campuses, and other colleges nearby. Palestinian, Arab, Muslim, and Jewish students report experiencing hate speech, intimidation, harassment, and even assault. Both antisemitism and Islamophobia are on the rise, tempers are flaring, biases spreading, and it is becoming increasingly difficult to have a dialogue across differences.

SUNY Schenectady County Community College is standing firmly against antisemitism, Islamophobia, and discrimination of any form, and for this episode, cohosts Alexandre Lumbala and Dr. Babette Faehmel took this statement to heart. We invited several guests who are all familiar with the region, to dialogue with us and each other and we are incredibly grateful for all of those who agreed, or who helped us find partners for this conversation.

Please join us for a difficult and painful, albeit sincere dialogue about historic hurts and present anguish – all in search of a just, dignified way forward. Our guests are Paula Weiss - co-founder and leader of the Children at the Well interfaith youth storytelling program and member of the Woodstock Jewish Congregation; Dr. Ahmad Abu-Hakmeh – a Muslim Palestinian American and member of the Greater Albany Muslim Community; Rabbi Matthew Cutler of the Congregation Gates of Heaven; and Cooper Patschureck – a student in SUNY Schenectady’s Communication Concentration and aspiring journalist.

We usually remove pauses from our recordings. For this episode, however, we decided to leave them in. We pause to listen and to process. In a conversation about a topic of this gravity, pauses are necessary and meaningful.  

Please Note: This episode includes content that listeners might find distressing. If you or anyone around you experiences emotional distress while listening, please pause or stop and take care of yourself and your loved ones first. If you are a listener in the US, you can call or text 988 or chat at 988lifeline.org for support. 

Want to find out more or get involved? 

The following organizations (which were mentioned in the podcast) consist of Palestinians and Jewish Israelis working together for a new future:

·       Standing Together, https://www.standing-together.org/en

·       Parents Circle https://www.theparentscircle.org/en/pcff-home-page-en/

·       Women Wage Peace https://www.womenwagepeace.org.il/en/

·       Peace Now https://peacenow.org.il/en/ 

·       Givat Haviva https://www.givathaviva.org/ 

The views voiced on this episode reflect the lived experiences and uncensored opinions of the guests; they do not necessarily capture the full diversity of attitudes within a larger community, nor do they express an official view of SUNY Schenectady.

Transcript

Babette Faehmel, Co-Host: 00:00

Hi, this is your host, Babette Faehmel. Before we get started, please note that this episode includes content that listeners might find distressing. If you or anyone around you experiences emotional distress while listening, please pause or stop and take care of yourself and your loved ones first. If you are a listener in the US, you can call or text 988 or chat at 988lifeline.org for support. 

Alexandre Lumbala, Co-Host: 00:31

Welcome to Many Voices One Call, SUNY Schenectady’s diversity, equity, inclusion, and social justice podcast. We are your hosts Alexandre Lumbala, business major and SGA treasurer, as well as Babette Faehmel, history professor. 

Babette Faehmel: 00:46

Hi. We are recording this on the 13th of December. It's going to be the seventh night of Hanukkah. We are approaching the end of finals week—all usually occasions for joy and positive anticipation—but our topic today is not at all festive, because our topic is the war in Gaza. It's Israel, Palestine, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, and how all this affects our own communities, our neighbors, and our students. 

Alexandre Lumbala: 01:15

We are joined today by Paula Weiss, co-founder and leader of the Children at the Well Interfaith Youth Storytelling Program, designed to increase our capacity for intercultural communication. She has paid several month-long visits to Israel and met there with people of diverse backgrounds. She's a member of the Woodstock Jewish Congregation and an active member for J Street, a political lobbying organization with the goal to end the conflict in the Middle East in a way that is agreed on by Israelis and Palestinians alike and that meets, and I quote: “the legitimate needs and national aspirations of both peoples.” This is from J Street's mission statement. Paula is further a member of the Sisterhood of Salaam and Shalom, which has its missions to build relationships between Muslim and Jewish women of all ages, to promote and advocate for human rights, and to end acts of all hate for all human beings. 

Babette Faehmel: 02:13

Then we have Dr. Ahmad Abu-Hakmeh. Did I say that correctly? All right, yeah, I get two thumbs up. Dr. Ahmad is a Muslim Palestinian-American with deep religious and family ties to Palestine, which he has visited on many occasions. He is an active member of the Greater Albany Muslim Community as a mentor and educator, and he has been invited to teach others on the Palestinian struggle at several mosques, high schools, universities—among them Siena and SUNY Orienta most recently—and Dr. Abu-Hakmeh holds a PhD in biomedical engineering from RPI, and he is a scientist at Regeneron. 

Alexandre Lumbala: 02:53

Our third studio guest is the Rabbi of Congregation Gates of Heaven, Matthew Cutler, and he has served in this role since 1995. Rabbi Matt is an avid community advocate. He's currently the national chair of Jubilee USA, which is an interfaith nonpartisan group seeking economic justice for people around the world. He is a former vice chair and current board member of the United Way of the Greater Capital Region and one of the founders and leaders of Schenectady Clergy Against Hate, a coalition of rabbis, ministers and imams who work together to lessen hatred and foster a healthy dialogue. Rabbi Matt is also an educator. He is married to Sharon and a proud father to three children, all of whom are working in public service, dedicated to community well-being. 

Babette Faehmel: 03:45

And last but certainly not least, in the studio with us is Cooper Patschureck. Cooper is currently in a Communications Concentration at SUNY Schenectady, and his career goals include journalism and writing. His family was active in civil rights in the past, and he grew up in a Jewish household.

Those were very long introductions and we usually don't do introductions this long, but we wanted to take the time for this episode to highlight that all our guests share a deep commitment to constructive dialogue, community well-being, and peace, and this is also what we care about deeply and why we wanted to do this episode. So, that said, I'm turning this over to you, Alex, for the first question. 

Alexandre Lumbala: 04:30

Okay, so let's start here. If one does not have a personal connection to the conflict, the Israel-Gaza war seems far away, but actually it has already entered communities, classrooms and campuses nearby, from Harvard to SUNY Albany. Tensions are rising, viruses are spreading, and it's difficult to have a dialogue across differences. So, our first question would be how you as a student, I'll take this over to Cooper to start with—but also as professionals, as clergy and also simply as community and family members—are affected by the current war and the larger conflict?

Cooper Patschureck, Guest: 05:05

Thank you. Well, as a student at this college, this conflict seems so far away in the Middle East, and it's closer than it actually really is. A recent event that I want to talk about was down the street from where I live. The other day there was a shooting at Temple Israel, and these hate crimes, these attacks, are becoming more and more common. We see this conflict that's so far away affecting us more and more, as in protest in larger schools such as UAlbany, Siena, Skidmore, and in our population of immigrants, many of which are Muslim, many of which come from the Middle East, and many have ties to family over there. Same with our Jewish friends who also hold ties to Israel, and many of the victims of the attacks. 

Babette Faehmel: 06:01

Yeah, absolutely. Rabbi Matt.

Rabbi Matthew Cutler, Guest: 06:19

Well, my connection is multifaceted. One: I used to live in Israel for two years, and in addition to that, I have family there. My wife’s two sister live in Israel, and one of them has sons who serve in the IDF. It also hits very close to home because our Jewish Federation of the Capital Region has a sister region in what's called the Eshkol Region is where many of these Kibbutzim and Moshavim and communities that were assaulted on October 7th were. We used to have an exchange program every Sunday morning with our religious school kids with classrooms in that area, which has ceased mainly because the teacher coordinating it—her and her husband—are among the ones missing and presumed to be in hostages. We have classmates of our students who partner with them and who are dead—were killed on October 7th—and we've been to these communities. In fact, back in April, we had hosted an exchange with 45 people from the Eshkol region who have been deeply impacted, whether physically or spiritually, with this, and we are also—were—planning on returning the favor by going back to the Eshkol region this coming February, which, of course, has been put on hold. 

Babette Faehmel: 07:38

Mm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, oh my gosh. 

Paula Weiss, Guest: 07:41

Where do I start? In around 2007, I began—because of a few events having to do with my kids, who were teenagers at the time—I began studying, educating myself about issues with Israel, and that led me to join J Street, which I have been a member since—active. Also, around that time, I began working as an academic editor for an Israeli educator who was getting a PhD in New York, and I was helping her with her writing in English, and eventually she invited me to come to Israel. I had never been, so I first went in 2010 and stayed for a month, and I did that a couple more times.

[08:34]

I really grew to love the country, love the people, and I was always uneasy with the Situation—with a capital S. Always very uneasy with it. And I have cousins there; I have friends. Many of my cousins are on the right-wing side, and we don't discuss politics, but this has always been sitting uneasily with me. Now when, let's see, I saw a panel discussion the other day with former Prime Minister—Palestinian Prime Minister—Salam Fayyad, and he called the event of October 7th, the Hamas attack, “an expected happening at an unexpected time.” And that resonated with me because I personally had this dread of something exploding at any time, and here it was. So, even though it happened so far away, it really had a big impact on me and, I think, many other people in that position. I also, you know, knowing about Benjamin Netanyahu's political and legal jeopardy that he was in at the time and his character, I was expecting bad things to happen as a result, and I was scared about it—and since that time I haven't been able to look away. 

[10:09]

I've been talking, discussing, researching, and seeing what I can do to bring people together to discuss, and we also organized an event with the Interfaith Story Circle the other day. That was very nice. 

Babette Faehmel: 10:26

Dr Ahmad. 

Dr. Ahmad Abu-Hakmeh, Guest: 10:27

Yeah, thank you for having us. Before I address the question, I, just as a rabbi, I hope, in response to the shootings outside of the synagogues, that the youth and the families are coming in these days of Hanukkah. We've had similar things happen at mosques, and if I could just say one thing, I would encourage the youth to hold on a little bit tighter to their yarmulkes and to really hold their faith strong in their hearts. These are terrible moments, and they have no place in society, and I hope that you guys are able to celebrate your holidays as it should be celebrated in these times. As to how the situation impacts me, it's very generational. I mean, my family lives in New Jersey and every single weekend, as soon as I'm off the clock, I want to go to Jersey and just be with my family and kind of process. The moments have, you know, caused anger inside of me. They've caused pain inside of me. They've caused me to do a lot of research at times and speak to people and educate people, and it's also paralyzed me at times. So all those…all those things have happened. 

[11:38]

So, my grandmother is older than the state of Israel, and she remembers growing up in Jerusalem, you know, when the Irgun and Haganah. These paramilitary forces were bombing their neighborhoods at night. She had Palestinian Christian friends in Bethlehem, and if it was safer in Bethlehem, they would go, stay there. And if it was safer in Jerusalem, her friends from Bethlehem would come and stay with her in Jerusalem. And she remembers having, you know, Jewish neighbors, and the kids would play in the streets and they would babysit each other.

My wife's family comes from a village called Bayt Jiz, which was ethnically cleansed in 1948. Speaking to my father-in-law, his grandfather, they fled the village after hearing what happened in surrounding villages, such as Deir Yassin and Tantura and some of these other villages where massacres had actually happened. And as he's leaving the village and walking by foot to Beit Sahour—which is approximately 30 kilometers away—with women and children, one of his neighbors, who was a Jew, came to him and begged him to not leave. He said, “please don't leave. Hopefully this is an episode that will pass.” But as we know, particularly from the declassified military archives, there was no safe story. There was no safe plan for those villages, and that was one of the over 500 that were destroyed at that time.

[13:07]

I have plenty of family who live there today. As I was saying before this recording, you know, I have relatives in a small village close to Nablus in the West Bank, and they are deeply impacted, but it's only a fraction as to what's happening in Gaza. Just to give you an idea: The olive is the cash crop for the Palestinians, and my village that my father is from has already lost over half of its farmland due to an illegal settlement by the name of Ara'il very close to it. This year alone, in addition to the land that they've already lost in my grandfather's lifetime. They were not granted access to half of their olive trees, and so this is a huge economic…paralyzing step, and I can only have very limited conversations with them. With regards to my family in Jerusalem, I'm afraid to actually get in touch with them because I know of people who, if they say anything remotely pro-Palestinian, the IDF or the police shows up at your door and throws you in jail. So, I don't actually have much contact with my family in Jerusalem at this time, and you know I have plenty of friends in Gaza—though I don't have direct relatives there, but plenty of friends there—and I know if I'm going to call somebody, it's not “has somebody died?” It's “how many people have died?” You know, I pray behind an Imam in New Jersey who's lost at least 15, and when he was giving a speech. 

[14:42]

He was giving the Friday sermon. He said, “a man from amongst you, in this congregation, has lost 70 members in their family.”

[14:51]

And then after the prayer usually you sit and you do your remembrance. After the prayer a man comes up to the imam and he whispers something to him—which I thought was pretty peculiar, because nobody usually approaches the imam after the prayer right away—And then I realized afterwards…the imam went to the microphone and said, “your brother here has lost 150 members of his family.” It just makes the hair on your spine stand up. It's just unspeakable, so it does deeply impact me. 

[15:24]

It's just unspeakable, so it does deeply impact me, and it brings back what I imagine to be the horrors that I never really received from my parents or grandparents' generation, because these are difficult things to share. But yeah, those are a lot of the emotions that are going through. 

Babette Faehmel: 15:40

Yeah, oh my God. So, as a DEI podcast at SUNY Schenectady, we actually have never done like a podcast episode before that had, like, an immediate current-events connection. The last time we had…the last time I experienced like a big, like global international conflict affecting me, was the war in Ukraine, and I remember that it was hard to deal with going to work every morning and acting as if everything was okay when it wasn't okay. And I can only imagine that it's similar now because not everybody is affected in the same way, and it's easy to check out from the news and just…if you have no immediate connection. 

[16:36]

I know from some of my students that they share your experience of being paralyzed. I lost one of my best—I mean in terms of, like, he checked out of my class—one of my best students who is a Muslim American and it's not as directly related, but it's still…Basically there's something happening that just makes it impossible to concentrate. So, I'm just wondering how…how do you experience the situation with your colleagues, your co-workers, your fellow students, when you yourself are very much deeply immersed in this conflict, or in all the many, many aspects of it connected to it: moral, political, ethical, religious? And what do you receive from your community? Rabbi Matt.

Rabbi Matthew Cutler: 17:25

Sure, well, you have to understand. Israel is a central tenet of Jewish belief. God, Torah and Israel are the three major sections of what we look at, and Israel is not just defined as land, it is a sense of peoplehood. Our synagogues face toward Jerusalem. Since the 8th century, our liturgy and worship has kind of talked about returning to Israel. Every time there's a grace after meal we talk about rebuilding Jerusalem and restoring this homeland. The last line of our Passover Seder is next year in Jerusalem. There is an incredible spiritual tie that goes back—since the year 70 CE—to this notion of return. 

[18:11]

And for that period of time, we have lived as outsiders around the world. Pogroms, a Holocaust, inquisitions, anti-Semitism—overt or subtle—has been part of the Jewish experience, and for us to gather, we have to have the sense of empathy and understanding. Yes, we have to create a space where people can voice their fear, their anger, their pain about what's going on, but also have to root it in a sense of trying to balance out our core values as Jews as well as our history as Jews, and that is an art form unto itself. There is pain on both sides of this equation and has to be acknowledged, and we cannot forget what goes on day in and day out in Gaza or parts of the West Bank. We have to acknowledge that. We also have to acknowledge the pain and suffering of those in Israel. Look, my brother-in-law was from Iraq. Well, actually he was born in Israel, but his family was from Iraq and were kicked out in the early 50s when they said there was no place for Jews in that country. So, there is this sense of hopelessness that Israel has responded to by concept of giving a landedness to a people that have yearned to return and had nowhere else to go. 

[19:50]

So how do we cope…deal with each other? We kind of correct each other's facts. One: You're allowed your own opinion, you're allowed emotions, but you're not allowed to make up your own information. Two: We have to understand the complexity of the situation and understand that there are many rights, and not in terms of actual—"I have a right to be here and a right there”—but correct attitudes here, and there's pain that has to be acknowledged, that cannot be dismissed, dealing with the 1,200 victims of October 7th on the Israeli side, who were exterminated because they were Jews. The atrocities there were tremendous. The fact that the captives that are held by Hamas—and that's one thing that we have not mentioned yet is the role of Hamas in all of this—. Quick aside, I have to tell you that my challenge with some of the questions was it's not an Israel-Gaza thing. It's not a Jew-Muslim thing. It is an Israel-Hamas thing that, unfortunately, the way that the web of terror has created has brought innocent civilians into the place, and this is unacceptable on so many levels. 

Babette Faehmel: 21:07

I cannot even tell you how many times I changed the phrasing for the notes and everything, because I find myself really very conflicted here because, yes, it is a terror attack that was begun by Hamas, but it's also a war that is verged in Gaza, and so I think it just shows the complexity of the whole issue. But maybe we can take one step back. For people who are listening to this and who might not have been as immersed as you all are, can we just briefly talk about who and what is Hamas? How do you want us to picture Gaza before the attack? What are some of the issues where you would wish more people would know some of the basic facts of this conflict? Anybody? 

Dr. Ahmad Abu-Hakmeh: 22:02

Yeah, I mean when it comes to October 7th. One of my issues with October 7th is there's absolutely nothing that you can do to defend the loss of innocent life in the Kibbutzim, in the settlements close to Gaza. There's nothing to celebrate over. It's a tragic loss. 

[22:29]

It's ridiculous. And if I can quote Ofer Cassif, who's in the Israeli Knesset, he said, “just as we cannot defend those actions, we cannot defend the illegal occupation that Israel imparts on the Palestinians.” And he was suspended from the Knesset for saying that. Before October 7th, none of the water in Gaza was potable. None of it. None of it. Before October 7th, the people of Gaza are—. If I'm raising my daughter in Gaza, my seven-year-old daughter, or my twins, four and four, my children would be shrinking due to malnutrition. They would be…they would have no hope for a future. They would have no hope. No way in, no way out.

[23:33]

Israel has, you know, they control the water that comes in. They feed them with an eyedropper, and they can cut that off when they want to and they can turn that on when they want to. And historically, at some points they had them fed on what was called a starvation-plus diet. Where they're not starving, but we're giving them a little bit more than that, and we can see in the growth charts the kids are not shrinking as a result of being nourished very well. And if we want to talk about any type of—. I mean, I think it's very important to centralize this struggle. The Jews have historically, as the rabbi pointed out, faced absolute atrocities against them—absolute atrocities against them—from the destruction of Jerusalem multiple times to Titus leveling the area and then being put in their various diasporas,

[24:32]

and he listed elegantly and correctly what they have faced in terms of the pogroms in Russia, in terms of being blamed for poisoning the water wells for the bubonic plague, in terms of the Spanish Inquisition—which did not differentiate between Muslims or Jews—in terms of the Holocaust, which was the culmination of a legacy of terrible anti-Semitism in Europe, and I remind myself and everyone here that historically, as he said, it has nothing to do with Jews and Muslims. Many times, as a result of those terrible atrocities and acts of anti-Semitism that the Jews faced, the Jews found refuge in Muslim lands. I mean, the Spanish Inquisition before that. I think the Jews historically welcomed the Muslims coming from North Africa as their liberators, based off how they were being treated by Western Christendom. And then, when they both had to flee, they fled into Morocco and Algeria and different Muslim majority North African countries, and in that time, in Spain, the Jews reached many of their peaks in terms of their religious literature. 

[25:41]

My understanding is that Talmud was completed in Iraq, perhaps, amongst other things, and so there's this thousand-year history of beautiful coexistence and coalescence between Muslims and Jews, and as a result of the hatred that was shown towards Jews, they have the natural inclination of ‘I want to go somewhere where I am not going to be persecuted,’ which is a completely natural thing, and…and absolutely. So, that is an absolute claim that is legitimate. It's just…it just this does not legitimize what has happened to the Palestinians as a result of establishing that State. 

[26:24]

You know, just anecdotally, when the Muslims came to Jerusalem in the 7th century, after the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) had passed away. The Caliph Umar took Jerusalem from the Caesar, from the Byzantines, and the Byzantines said ‘don't let the Jews back in, don't let the Jews back in.’ And he said, “you're not my teacher. I'm not going to follow your lead.” So he brings 40 Jewish families out of the diaspora, and he finds out where the temple is—and that was used as a garbage dump where horses relieved themselves—and Omar himself, the leader of the Muslims, was cleaning it with his hands. And the Jewish families saw what he was doing. They praised him, they cried, and they joined him in cleaning the area. And so we helped resettle...Muslims helped resettle Jews in the area. What had happened, unfortunately, is Muslims can…people can look at the same historical things from completely different areas.

[27:26]

So, when we look at the Balfour Declaration of 1917 promising a Jewish a homeland for the Jews in Palestine, it's perhaps viewed as a godsend for the Jews in the diaspora—and why shouldn't it be, given what they faced? But when you look at Balfour's memorandums, he says with regards to the land of Palestine, that Zionism—be it good or bad—is really an age-old tradition of far more profound needs than the 700,000 inhabitants that live there. 

[27:58]

In other words, ‘we don't care about the people that were there.’ You know…and so, and this was part of—and you can look at, you know—the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, written very elegantly by Ilan Pappé, who declassified…he synthesizes from declassified documents from the paramilitary groups of the predecessors to the IDF, which documents the villages they wanted to destroy and the ones they wanted to keep for themselves. And, at the end of the day, whenever this happens to people, whenever they are forcibly removed from their houses, whenever they are ethnically cleansed, whenever they are occupied, there will always be resistance—always be resistance—and, always, ugly things will happen as a result of that. Always. 

[28:45]

This is what happened with the Native Americans revolting against the Americans in this country. It's what happened with Nat Turner and his revolt as a slave against his enslavers. It's what happened in Algeria against the French. It's what happened with the ANC against the South Africans. So I think it's important to centralize, and I know there's this war that wants to get rid of Hamas once and for all. But with this widespread destruction, what are you going to do to the people? 

Babette Faehmel: 29:10

Yeah, yeah…

Dr. Ahmad Abu-Hakmeh: 29:11

There's going to be nothing left of Gaza, and there's going to be a single kid who's lost everyone in his family. What conclusions is that kid going to make in life? What conclusions is he going to make in life? 

Rabbi Matthew Cutler: 29:23

So, your initial question was, “what is Hamas?” And I want to state off right off the bat is that it's a terrorist group. It also has a political arm that is part of the governing system of that area, and this is what's really—. What we just heard is a brilliant way of describing the web in which this operates. Look, go back to 1948. The Jews and the Israelis call it the War of Independence. In the Muslim world, in the Arab world, it's called Nakba: destruction.

Babette Faehmel: 29:57

The Catastrophe…

Rabbi Matthew Cutler: 29:59

You have these different perceptions of narrative. Balfour Declaration is a brilliant illustration of this. Balfour himself was an evangelical Christian. His motivation was about messianism, not about giving a homeland for the Jews or dealing with the political ramifications of oil in the Middle East that the white paper in ’39—in the 30s—tried to undo. You have this constant go…give back and forth with these narratives that are so intertwined. And so what as one sees as a freedom fighter and another sees as a terrorist is all a question of perspective, but what we have to agree on is that violence is wrong…

Babette Faehmel: 30:43

Absolutely.

Rabbi Matthew Cutler: 30:44

…and whether it is committed by Jews to Palestinians, or it's being done by terrorists to Jews wherever they are—and that is the problem that we're facing. If you look at the Temple Israel situation, this is the perfect scenario on which I'm describing. You have an anti-Israel sentiment mixed in…that is so intertwined with Jews in Israel that it becomes anti-Semitic, and in our uncoupling and untying this web of knots, that we have to start addressing the basic core, which we already have heard about, which is human dignity and the right to exist on their own terms.

Babette Faehmel: 31:33

And I think that is the biggest challenge for us as educators and as community members and as people who really care about human—well, everybody's human dignity—because these complexities disappear when you are looking at much of, for instance, social media. I mean, Cooper, we talked about that a little bit. And they also, in many ways, seem to be disappearing in some younger people's ways of dealing and making sense of this conflict. So, just to—and I realize this is like somewhat of a different question—but do you feel that like…where do you see the biggest disconnect between what you hold in your heart and soul and your mind as truth, as important principles, and how your surroundings discuss this event, how it is being covered by media today, how is it covered in your community by speakers or on social media, such things? And, Cooper, maybe you can start by talking a little bit about your peers, your generation, fellow students.

Cooper Patschureck: 32:45

Of course, I think misinformation is one of the biggest issues coming out of this conflict—especially when it comes to the media—because you see both sides hold their own views, and they hold their side of the story up above all others. And it's to the point where you'll see something in the news and somebody will just call it propaganda. They'll say it's biased. They'll say it's portrayed; it's just made a bigger deal than it actually is. And you hear all these words being thrown around, and it's just so hard to find unbiased information that just proves the true story, especially with like students, because I know there's not much going on at this school, but I have friends that go to a lot of SUNY schools, a lot of local schools. Um, Purchase College…

[33:36]

…a student just got arrested down there over a debate over a, um…it was an Israeli…support Israel poster that they took down. University of Rochester: another student was arrested. University of Binghamton: they're trying to ban the Students for Palestine…I forgot the official name of it. 

Dr. Ahmad Abu-Hakmeh: 34:05

SJP. Students for Justice in Palestine.

Cooper Patschureck: 34:07

Yes, thank you, sir. They're trying to ban that because they’re associating it with hate speech, and it’s just becoming really hard to find the line to draw where this support for Israel or Palestine can be separated from Islamophobic rhetoric or anti-Semitic hate crimes. 

Babette Faehmel: 34:35

Do you feel that sometimes this very complicated, very long, historically incredibly messy and complicated conflict and situation and development…and just the history is being kind of like pushed into narratives and pushed into, well, like a concept of oppressor versus oppressed that doesn't fit the situation? 

Cooper Patschureck: 35:00

Absolutely, because I just think an example and different sides of media always try to portray either the Palestinians as victims or the Israelis as victims and, as the honorable rabbi was talking about, it's both sides are victims. Both sides are just caught in this conflict between these groups, the Palestinians being Hamas—the terrorist group Hamas—and the Jewish people residing in Israel, just their government that's trying to keep control of the area.

Babette Faehmel: 35:39

Paula, you’re nodding. I was just thinking when the rabbi and Dr. Ahmad were talking that with…well, basically two communities where there is so much shared suffering and shared history—right? —shared persecution, shared claims, like equally legitimate claims on the land, one of the ways to possibly bridge some of these conflicts would be storytelling, and you do that with the Children of the Well, correct?

Paula Weiss: 36:12

Yeah.

Babette Faehmel: 36:13

Can you… oh, you didn't want to go there.

Paula Weiss: 36:15

I didn't want to go there. 

Babette Faehmel: 36:16

Okay, go…go wherever you want to go with this.

Paula Weiss: 36:17

What Cooper was saying really resonated with me. I feel that, you know, my heart is with the people of Israel, the people of Gaza, the Palestinian people. To quote Salam Fayyad again, the former prime minister, he feels that the Israeli government has never yet acknowledged the need for a Palestinian homeland, and I agree. But I feel that the people are being held hostage by their own governments, I mean Hamas is a horror of a government, you know, that they would allow their people to be in such harm's way is just awful. 

[37:06]

And the right-wing Netanyahu government, which I learned things about after the attacks. I had no idea how instrumental Netanyahu was in building up Hamas, supporting it, using it for his own political purposes to keep down the PA…

Babette Faehmel: 37:29

The Palestinian Authority.

Paula Weiss: 37:30

…the Palestinian Authority, and to enable the settlement growth. There is no way that a two-state solution—any kind of peaceful solution—can be started with that government in place and with Hamas in place. 

Babette Faehmel: 37:49

Yeah, it's a trap. It's really—. Yeah, Cooper, please.

Cooper Patschureck: 37:52

Adding on to what you said, I also feel like the people—Palestine and Israel—are also unfairly caught in the middle of a proxy conflict, you could say. Because you mentioned that the government, the right-wing government of Israel, enabled the creation of Hamas, but it's also the Islamic Republic in Iran, under the Ayatollah funds Hamas, and Hamas answers a lot of calls from Tehran. And in a way, us in the United States we support…we heavily support Israel, and we are basically in a non-declared conflict with Iran and their processes in the Middle East. We see recently in the news…you see in Yemen, where the Houthis have been launching missiles at our fleets in the area, and it's just…it's just sad that these people are stuck in the middle of this conflict between us and Iran over just domination in the Middle East, especially in places like Iraq too: The Shiite and the Sunni conflict that is funded by both us and the Islamic Republic in Iran.

Paula Weiss: 39:01

Very true. 

Babette Faehmel: 39:02

Dr. Ahmad. 

Dr. Ahmad Abu-Hakmeh: 39:03

Yeah. So again, I just really think it's important to center this and, I mean, like I said…I mean I don't…I don’t at all accept the actions that happened on October 7th, but I think it really needs to be contextualized better. And, I mean, we want to call—.

Rabbi Matthew Cutler: 39:30

Wait, wait, wait. I'm sorry to interrupt. You can't... 

Dr. Ahmad Abu-Hakmeh: 39:32

I’m not, I’m not…no, no, no.

Rabbi Matthew Cutler: 39:33

Okay, I just want to make sure that you're not going to condone what happened on October 7th. 

Babette Faehmel: 39:38

He said contextualize. Contextualize, not condone.

Rabbi Matthew Cutler: 39:40

Tread lightly on this, because I'll walk out if you try to justify this in any way, shape, or form. 

Babette Faehmel: 39:44

No, I don't think that is the intent at all. He said “contextualize.” 

Dr. Ahmad Abu-Hakmeh: 39:49

No, I'm just saying, unfortunately, whenever people are suppressed for a very, very long time, atrocities will happen as a result, and October 7th has its share of atrocities, absolutely. And when you have a government that doesn't want to recognize the Palestinians or provide them rights, when you have a government…when you have somebody like Smotrich who advocates for—in 2017—'we should annex the entire West Bank and continue to expand settlements and give the Palestinians one of three choices.’ Look up Smotrich's plan. The choices are accept a life of subjugation, leave—and we will gladly finance you to leave—or resist, and you will be brutally punished for resisting. 

[40:48]

This is unmistakable from what the founding fathers of the State viewed the Palestinians as, and it's been shown the entire time. And so I think some of what Hamas does is absolutely terror, but what created it?

Babette Faehmel: 41:06

Yeah.

Dr. Ahmad Abu-Hakmeh: 41:07

What created it? You know, for the Palestinians, whenever a Palestinian kid sees an IDF soldier in front of them, they think it's a terrorist. They absolutely do. When I walk into Ben Gurion Airport, I am told where to go with a gun pointed at me the entire time. The entire time.

Babette Faehmel: 41:23

Yeah. I mean, it's very—. 

Dr. Ahmad Abu-Hakmeh: 41:26

I have to go through prison cells to get from Ramallah to get to Jerusalem. 

Babette Faehmel: 41:30

Yeah. 

Dr. Ahmad Abu-Hakmeh: 41:31

And you know, just because somebody is in a uniform, just because somebody is being funded by the United States, does not make them any less of a terrorist in the eyes of a Palestinian—and that is how the Palestinians view this. 

Babette Faehmel: 41:47

And the tricky part is that we can go around and around and around and talk about the history, and we can talk about the politics behind it—and we will probably then once again find ourselves in this position where each side only feels the hurt and the pain of their side and of their community and is not necessarily able to find the common humanity anymore. 

[42:16]

And because of the way in which so many complex conflicts are being simplified in our political discourse and in the political arena and on media and on social media, it just becomes increasingly difficult to have a complex narrative, right? And I think like, well—okay, now that I have dissed social media on social media—what you hear on social media is again and again and again, Israeli students, Jewish students, Palestinian students, Muslim students speaking out or speaking behind the camera to a microphone, talking about how they feel they have nowhere to go in this country. They have nowhere to go with their pain and their fear and their confusion. And how can we help the people in our own community to understand the situation better and to understand both sides, because it's one of the most difficult historical conflicts that you can study—I believe, right?—because there are no easy answers. I mean, there are never any easy answers in international conflicts, but this one is like the problem from hell. So, what can we do as community members for our sisters and brothers?

Rabbi Matthew Cutler: 43:42

We're doing it right now. The fact that we're sitting here and having this conversation is essential in this regard, and there are these buttons that we all have—and I already showed mine, so forgive me for that. But if you look at the nature of what social media is: It's a finite opportunity. Most of our young people get their news from TikTok, from Instagram—which is better than a generation before, which used to get it from a three-minute segment on the news. Now we have it on a 35-second segment on TikTok, and we cannot capture the depth of the challenge.

Babette Faehmel: 44:21

No.

Paula Weiss: 44:21

And that's what we're hearing as we go around the circle. We have passions. We have strong notions, and I'll tell you one of the things that I have to tell you I fault is that we are living in a greater polarized society, where screaming and anger gets more attention, and those who are talking peace in the middle or partnership in the middle are extreme. You see this in the US government.

[44:48]

You see, it in every form of government that is being created, and…I'll give you a point: We are taking a soundbite of Elise Stefanik talking to university president, and she's being applauded for standing up to anti-Semitism. Yet, in my mind, the rhetoric of hatred that has been coming out from both sides of the political spectrum have created this atmosphere, and so we got to stop looking at the narrow perspective and have this larger one. Case in point just now: I was ready to jump down someone's throat because he wouldn't condemn, and then, when I sat on my hands, I heard things that said I hear you, now hear me—and that is key. 

Babette Faehmel: 45:35

Yeah. 

Paula Weiss: 45:36

Yeah, I would also say that we have to be really careful about all of those social divides that you're talking about and the anger, because I think there are really deliberate forces at work in society to keep us apart, to keep us divided, so that democracy breaks down and fascism creeps in, and I have seen this in talks that are ostensibly about anti-Semitism. 

[46:13]

Somebody shared a talk saying, ‘oh, this is anti-Semitism’ to a study group of mine, and I looked at this. It was Barry Weiss talking to the Federalist Society. She used right-wing talking points and what her agenda was was breaking down diversity, equity and inclusion programs, and she's using—cynically using—the rise in anti-Semitism to further this agenda. And she's not the only one. I saw it other times, and then Elise Stefanik also. 

[46:54]

We have to hold on to our democracy through this, and I have found that one of the best things for me personally is reaching out and talking to friends. Even on Facebook, I wrote a couple of simple sentences, and I kind of…I got a hundred likes for my few words—and then we had a civil conversation. 

[47:17]

Every day I would monitor it. Is it getting out of hand? No, it was pretty good, and I felt that was really important for people to be able to step in and give their opinions. Also, in conversations with Sisters of Salaam Shalom…

Babette Faehmel: 47:34

Yeah. 

Paula Weiss: 47:34

That was really beautiful. We had a meeting, and each spoke from the heart. And also the Interfaith Story Circle organized an event last Sunday at the Interfaith Chapel of—is that what they call it now?—Interfaith Center of the College of St Rose, and we had people told stories, poems and shared that way prayers. And then we all went downstairs for cookies and coffee and chatted, and it was so good to be together.

Babette Faehmel: 48:13

I think that's that is one of the most important ways in which we can foster understanding by basically sharing a meal and a story. And talking about stories, I mean, I, I have to admit I stopped listening to documentaries, and I switched to just novels and, like, written by Palestinian writers and…just in order to feel something that my—. I mean, I cannot…I can analyze things to death. I can like…I love doing that, and I put up multiple screens between me and another person's felt pain that way, and that is not always the right way. (Exhales.) Can you talk more about the Sisterhood of Salaam Shalom? 

Paula Weiss: 48:59

Well, I haven't belonged to it for all that long. I had already known a number of the women that were involved, so what can I say about it? It's not basically political. We get to know each other, and we support each other. Different life events or—. One of our members was going down to the Albany County Legislature to call for a ceasefire. 

Babette Faehmel: 49:35

Mm-mmm. 

Paula Weiss: 49:36

And a few of us showed up to support her. That sort of thing, but we don't have long political discussions. 

Babette Faehmel: 49:43

No, no, and do you think that is also not the point? The point is to relate to one another and to just, like, ease those gaps between communities. Cooper…

Cooper Patschureck: 49:55

So on the topic of how, like, we as a community can learn from a new…from a more neutral standpoint. Recently, I went to see this Israeli speaker—Miko Peled is his name—at a library, the Bethlehem Public Library, and there was a lot of protest for him to not speak there. He was…He's an Israeli speaker: IDF veteran speaking on behalf of the Palestinian side. He's pro-Palestine, very anti-Israel—that's one way to word it. But they did not want him to speak, and they eventually…the library had to allow him to speak. And there was just all the protests there, just seeing all these people…

[50:46]

There's people waving Israeli flags, showing up in IDF merch, yelling at each other, calling each other murderers, people that caused genocide—just all these insults—and there was undercover police officers. It was such a polarized event that attracted so many people, and afterwards the library decided to do a seminar—like a classroom event—trying to go into the background of the Israeli-Palestine conflict and trying to view it from a less violent standpoint and just try to get a better neutral view of it all to show that people can just coexist. Because when I was at that event, there was no, like, discussion. It was just people yelling, screaming each other, waving again waving Israeli flags, people with IDF, merch, calling each other names, names. It was not pretty. Not pretty at all. 

Babette Faehmel: 51:46

Yeah, I mean I will defend DEI education like any day, but sometimes I just also wonder if we do DEI talks and DEI topics the wrong way we are encouraging like the danger is to do it superficially and to do it in a way where it encourages people to take an easy moral stand—like a very self-righteous stand. 

[52:18]

I mean, I love it when I post something and I get likes—obviously, right?—but that's also the trap, right, because it's not always about getting likes and about posting something and you show your virtue and it's…It's sometimes really to not click and not like something and to figure out more about it. And especially right now, it seems that, well, people…a lot of people, take a very absolute stand pro or against something, and it shows up in this conflict too. You are running around screaming and feeling very self-righteous—and when I was 15, 16 years old, I did plenty of that too. But now in this polarized situation—politically polarized and economically difficult and in so many ways difficult and precarious and dangerous situation—it's like oil to the flame. So, in terms of, how do we talk to students? How do we talk to young people? How do we talk to neighbors about this conflict? It's just so difficult. Rabbi Matt.

Rabbi Matthew Cutler: 53:30

I would focus in on our constitution. As we're dealing with international issues, religious tensions, the presence—. You know, we talk about the freedom of speech, but we don't focus in on the responsibility that comes along with freedom of speech, and that is actually the American dialogue is beginning to address this issue. 

[53:54]

So, you have this situation in the Bethlehem Library. You have this conflict that people were afraid of it provoking greater anti-Semitism in the community. Then you have another group that says ‘but we need to hear another voice.’ The problem is we don't know how to listen, and we don't know how to take our words and use it responsibly, where there's empathy for those who are going to hear or impart it—and that is key. Yeah, and all this dialogue is being able to hear and to respond without ‘I'm going to beat you into submission so you see it my way.’

Babette Faehmel: 54:42

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Ahmad Abu-Hakmeh: 54:43

I just want to say something as well. Thank you for sharing that. I mean…when I was in graduate school, one of my character flaws is I don't smile enough…

Babette Faehmel: 54:52

(Chuckles)

Dr. Ahmad Abu-Hakmeh: 54:53

…and I've been told this many times, and this is something I definitely need to…

Rabbi Matthew Cutler: 54:55

But you're smiling right now.

Alexandre Lumbala: 54:56

Yeah, you are. (Chuckles along with other episode participants.)

Dr. Ahmad Abu-Hakmeh: 54:57

I do need to work on that, but one of the things I usually get in first impressions is ‘you come off as being very intimidating.’ And I wonder if that has to do—I think part of that: I could smile more—but I wonder how much of me coming off as intimidating is what has been manufactured in your mind for people who look like me? I have a beard, very visibly Muslim. I, you know, maybe do certain things different than you, or interact in different ways. And somebody told me that, and I asked them right back to them, like, “hey, were you programmed to think that way about people who look like me?” 

Babette Faehmel: 55:34

Yeah.

Dr. Ahmad Abu-Hakmeh: 55:34

And they were silent, and immediately something clicked with them. So, if I am saying something, and you already have in your mind this manufactured idea that this person— ‘I can't trust him as much. I might trust him in the daytime, but at nightfall I don't trust him as much,’ or ‘I wouldn't trust them with my seat’ or whatever it may be—then it's very hard to have those dialogues. But if there's sincerity in people's hearts, and this is something—. I co-captained my high school soccer team with my friend—who's Jewish—and when the events happened in Sheikh Jarrah two years ago in Ramadan, I messaged him. I said, “hey, I know we never talked about this, but I really respect our friendship, and I hope we can navigate a conversation about what's going on in Palestine right now, and I respect that we might have different opinions and the conversation could get difficult. If we need to bookmark it, we can...”

Babette Faehmel: 56:29

Yeah. 

Dr. Ahmad Abu-Hakmeh: 56:30

…but I really want to have this conversation with you. I opened his eyes to a lot of things from my perspective. I can't say that we've necessarily agreed on everything, and I messaged him again after, you know, this recent flare up. And I said, “hey, man, you know, if we want to catch up just as friends, we can do that. If you want to touch base on what's happening. Also, I wish we could talk under better circumstances, but you know, let's definitely touch base again.” And I extend the same thing to my coworkers. 

[56:57]

One of the difficult things is I think there is still an unconscious taboo of speaking for the Palestinians. I've noticed in talking to a lot of people there is a lot of sympathy, but a lot of people don't want to say anything. There's a lot of apprehension, and so I do sort of many times feel like I'm on an island, even though, you know…even though there's a lot of silent support. 

[57:22]

But yeah, I think, trying to have conversations but also taking care of yourself, so when you arrive at those conversations, you know, you can actually voice your opinion. If you're going to disagree, you do it in a polite way amongst other things. 

Rabbi Matthew Cutler: 57:34

That's why Paula's work is so important. See, the center of what you just talked about was being able to have a relationship that is solid before you have the difficult…

Babette Faehmel: 57:44

Right, right.

Rabbi Matthew Cutler: 57:45

…conversations Right. And, you know, we're starting this relationship with ‘let's talk Israel-Palestine.’

Babette Faehmel: 57:53

(Laughs gently.)

Rabbi Matthew Cutler: 57:54

You know, ah…Paula and I have a relationship that goes back a couple of years and—even though we may disagree on certain aspects—I like Paula, and I think she likes me in terms of being able to work together. And therefore, we will find that, as you described with your Jewish friend from high school, there is a space because you know my soul. You can see the face of God in me. You can understand where I am, and then, when the challenging questions come, we know how to make space for each other and to agree to disagree but coexist— Not where I want to smite you or have to watch my back that I'm going to be punished. 

Babette Faehmel: 58:39

Yeah, absolutely. Paula…

Paula Weiss: 58:47

I just know from my own efforts to try to educate myself that there's no end to it. There's no end to it, and part of me wants to say ‘let history be bygones. Let's start with the people that are here, that are living in the land, that need a dignified way forward and security and peace.’ And a phrase that I picked up in reading about one of the victims of the Hamas attack was—. First of all, we haven't acknowledged that a lot of the people that were killed in that attack were peace workers living at the Gaza border, and one of those was Vivian Silver, who had once referred to herself as a conditional Zionist. And I feel that I can accept that description of myself. I am very much for a homeland for the Jewish people as long as there is a homeland for the Palestinian people right alongside. 

Babette Faehmel: 01:00:04

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. (Four seconds of silence) Yeah—.

Paula Weiss: 01:0:09

It's the people.

Babette Faehmel: 01:00:011

Yeah, it is the people. I mean…Okay, as a historian, (chuckles) I cannot agree with the statement of ‘let history be bygones,’ but I know what you mean. I know what you mean because it entangles you, right? It entangles you in this endless debate of who did the first wrong. Like, I mean, I don't know…I was joking about this earlier with Alexandre. If in doubt, blame the British. I will go back to that. We can still do that, (episode participants laugh) but it doesn't really help us, right? But history is also a big, like…

[01:00:47]

History can be a big source of identity. I mean, I saw that with my grandparents who were, like, basically kicked out of Poland because they were ethnic Germans, and they carried this with them till their death. And it was a source of community, and it was a source of identity. You could not take that away from them. And I think, if there had not at some point been a political act basically declaring this land is legitimately Polish land, this would have gone on forever. It would never have—these discussions about the farm that was lost and whatever—would never have ceased, right? And so it's both. It's the history, it's the identity, it's the people, and it's politics. 

[01:01:32]

It's, unfortunately, a really, really complicated mess. Right? And so teaching people, teaching young people, teaching students how to deal with that mess, it's just, unfortunately, our job, right? It's our duty. It's our responsibility, and it's not something that necessarily has been done—has to be done—only by professors, because, I mean, we have, like, Alexandre is totally connected to so many diverse people around here, so many international students, so many American students who have no idea what you have experienced in your life. And Cooper is another fantastic example, because he's just a great communicator. I had him in a DEI class, and I always knew like when he's talking over there, I don't have to pay attention because he's doing my job for me—for no pay, unfortunately. So, there is this hope. It's just, like, my fear is that we lose sight of the context and the complexity of it all because that's just not what we are trained to…to look at. 

Alexandre Lumbala: 01:02:35

You know, can I just shoot something in there? Because I haven't said much.

Babette Faehmel: 01:02:39

Please do.

Alexandre Lumbala: 01:02:40

Yeah, I mean obviously right now in the room, I feel like everybody has a very close connection to this conflict—to this thing that's been happening for years. And from my side, I grew up in Southern Africa, in Botswana, a really small country. 

[01:02:53]

My parents are Congolese from the Democratic Republic of Congo, so that's my life. That's like…I hear about that politic—those politics—all the time. And when we were thinking about even making this episode, it was like a whole new world for me. There was a whole new can of worms, and I kind of didn't know what to go—what to do—because even with my own personal family politics and, sorry, cultural politics. There's a lot, and it's it leaves me really in the middle of everything. I don't know whether to go this way or that way, or forward or backwards. I just kind of observe, right? And that's what I was doing here today, and I think it's really beautiful how each and every one of you guys could share what hurt you about this. You know, you guys came ready to share what hurt you about, and that kind of—. I saw that exchange between Matt and Ahmad. Is that how I say it?

Dr. Ahmad Abu-Hakmeh: 01:03:45

Yes.

Alexandre Lumbala: 01:03:45

…and it was very beautiful. I like what you said, right: You sat on your hands for a little bit and you're able to hear that he heard you and he needed you to hear him as well—and I really liked that. I really…that was good to witness, and I'm glad that we got that into the episode because I think that will also be a way to teach people about the complexities of this conflict.

[01:04:07]

And I was looking at the question five we have here. Did you see that? The fifth question that we had how it? In short, it was basically talking about—. We wanted to ask everybody here how—. So, I'll just read it word for word: “For those with ties to the region, are you supported by a college or employer as you balance, trying to be present and engaged with the continued uncertainty, worry, grief, etc.? How do you balance societal expectations of productivity with protecting your well-being and healing during this ongoing conflict? How can the community help people impacted by the conflict right now?” I feel like that's the most important thing, right, catering to the people who are here right now. You know what I mean, because we are struggling with this conflict as well. 

Babette Faehmel: 01:04:56

And also, what can one do right? How can one support others? Because I mean, yeah, like…everything else is out of our reach. 

Alexandre Lumbala: 01:05:08

So I don't know who wants to take the floor. 

Dr. Ahmad Abu-Hakmeh: 01:05:10

Yeah, I mean, without going into too much details, you know my employer, I break it up into two areas. I think, all the way from the senior leadership. No, unfortunately, I don't really feel supported. I thought there was a, you know, very one-sided communication put out at the beginning of this and very little acknowledgement for what's going to happen to the Palestinians and nothing has come out as a response. And you know it's a global company and many of my men—many of the people around me—I know were, you know…wished for a more balanced response and you know it didn't come out. I mean, I have friends around me and we've sort of talked to each other and sort of supported each other. You know at my mosque, obviously, you know I have that. But in terms of, I think part of the question is how do I, how am I still able to take care of myself one way or…? 

Babette Faehmel: 01:06:07

Yeah. 

Dr. Ahmad Abu-Hakmeh: 01:06:09

And just whenever any of this stuff happens, the media cannot be the first thing or the last thing that enters my day—absolutely cannot. That's prayer. You have to center yourself with something that can keep you calm so that when you're able to see those—when you do see those difficult things—you do them with a heart that's tranquil because it's going to shake you. And I've been guilty of not always being able to do that. So, you know, trying to make sure the day starts and ends and has those time points, or those hard stops for prayer and reflection and remembrance, to center yourself, make sure I'm there for my kids, my wife, my parents and so forth. 

[01:06:52]

Take in what you can, and people have different thresholds for what they can. And then part of my sanity is having these conversations, you know. I think part of me would die spiritually if I was not able to have these conversations. So, I mean, thank you for that.

Alexandre Lumbala: 01:07:10

It's very beautiful.

Paula Weiss: 01:07:11

Thank you for that reminder for centering—very important. Could use it. 

Babette Faehmel: 01:07:15

Yeah, and I mean we can draw on the memory of other such difficult conversations. I mean, because again and again and again during this conversation, I was reminded of when I first began involved in conversations about anti-black racism in this country, right, and how difficult it was for me to enter conversations with black colleagues, with black students where I felt I have never had that experience, I have never lived in a black body. 

[01:07:53]

I don't know this in my body, in my soul, I can like intellectualize it—and how it was a learning curve. But eventually, I mean we—because of these conversations that were really, really difficult and that often ended in, I mean, not in a good place, right? And then even in fights, I mean like verbal controversies and verbal altercations—but they were incredibly important. And I think we also need to seek out more of these conversations across the divides, across our differences, talk about like these really, really difficult political and historical issues and keep an open mind, keep listening, right? Listening—and sitting on your hands when you want to opinionate and when you want to have a strong reaction—because we have done this before. We have bridged divides. We have done this. We are better than some of these talking heads in politics and the media. We are just better people.

Rabbi Matthew Cutler: 01:09:00

You know, it's funny when I do marriage counseling—and it gets ugly, especially when they head down the path of divorce—every once in a while, I need to point out there was a reason you chose that other to be your partner, and even though you may not see it today, you need to remember that. 

[01:09:24]

One of the important things here, as we go forward, is that we have to remember that as we are dealing with drawing boundaries, we are also empowering people to live, and the blame game is so easy and it's so—. The loudest voice and the angriest voice usually gets the biggest stage. We also have to give the peacemakers the place to consolidate and to comfort and reassure. 

Babette Faehmel: 01:10:02

Yeah. 

Rabbi Matthew Cutler: 01:10:03

You know what I loved about the question that you asked, Alexandre, was that my employer—. You know two Jews, three opinions. Boy, you put a board of trustees in place. You know, if I say ‘Israel,’ I'm going to get yelled at for being too passive, and if I say ‘Israel,’ I'm going to be, you know…that I'm a right-wing hawk. And there is…everyone brings their own opinions to this table. But what we have to do is model, and model with sincerity, and hopefully not trickle down but trickle up. I know it goes against the laws of gravity—sorry to the physicists around the table. It is this sense that we have to model for our leaders that people can get along, that people can work together. 

Paula Weiss: 01:10:59

One thing that I found very helpful is seeking out and sharing about all the different groups in Israel-Palestine that are working together: Jews and Palestinians together on these issues. I have a whole list of organizations that I look to for good information and I look to for inspiration for how to build what needs to be built there. 

Rabbi Matthew Cutler: 01:11:26

Don't forget the voice of the victims: the hostages, those imprisoned, those who are being persecuted, on whether they are. We have to speak up for the victims. 

Babette Faehmel: 01:11:40

The list of organizations. 

Paula Weiss: 01:11:42

Organizations like Standing Together—very exemplary. They're doing really good work. Parents Circle, a family forum with bereaved on both sides working together. Women Wage Peace—that's another one. Actually, when my husband and I were in Israel in 2015, I think we sat in an encampment with Women Wage Peace outside of Netanyahu's residence. Peace Now and Givat Haviva.

Babette Faehmel: 01:12:15

I would appreciate if you could share the list so I can put them in the show notes.

Paula Weiss: 01:12:19

Oh, sure.

Babette Faehmel: 01:12:20

That's awesome. 

Paula Weiss: 01:12:20

Yeah, and I have been posting also about shared events. The other day there was a Hanukkah candle lighting, inviting Palestinian neighbors in the north of Israel in for this and that sort of thing, and people love to see cooperation. 

Babette Faehmel: 01:12:45

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I think that that is the path forward. I mean, that's what we can do right here.

Okay, well, we are coming up at our one hour recording mark. I knew this would be a difficult conversation. There's so much that we have not had a chance to talk about, but probably we could have like 10, 15 more episodes and would still have things to talk about. Is there anything that one of you would like to say before we end as something that you wish we had talked more about and that people would get out of their way and try to learn more about. Cooper?

Cooper Patschureck: 01:13:37

Well, I just want to say I approve of how this college specifically is handling the conflict. The emails have been being sent out, the resources (agreement) and I—. Well, I'm kind of happy we're not having a lot of trouble on campus, (agreement) but it's—. I know I'm one of the only two students here, but it would have been nice to talk more about how this conflict impacts young Americans (emphatic agreement) and us as taxpayers, that where a lot of our money goes towards a lot of the crimes happening in the Middle East.

Babette Faehmel: 01:14:14

Okay, yeah. Alex? 

Alexandre Lumbala: 01:14:17

What more could we talk about? 

Babette Faehmel: 01:14:19

(Laughter)

Alexandre Lumbala: 01:14:20

I mean, I understand it's definitely a large topic, but, like we were also talking about before the episode started, how trying to keep yourself aware is a big…it's an important part of being human, right? Whether you're far removed from the conflict or not, or regardless of how you feel of how far removed you are, it is important to make yourself aware of it, and even though there's not much going on on our campus with about the conflict, I'm sure that, um, being more informed will never hurt. 

Babette Faehmel: 01:14:50

So yeah, and it's also not necessarily that just because we have don't have loud voices that there's nothing going on…

Alexandre Lumbala: 01:14:57

That’s true.

Babette Faehmel: 01:14:58

Because I think sometimes we hear about things because students drop a…like they make a comment here, they make a comment there, and you notice and you realize suddenly, ‘no, wait a minute, there is conversation going on. It's just like I'm not a part of it.’ 

[01:15:12]

And they're not doing it out there in the quad, because we don't…because that's just not what our students necessarily do. We are a commuter campus. It's just different. Dr. Ahmad, last words? 

Dr. Ahmad Abu-Hakmeh: 01:15:26

I'm processing. Can you come back to me? Absolutely. 

Babette Faehmel: 01:15:28

Absolutely, rabbi, or Paula who wants to. Anything, you can say no. I'm good. 

Paula Weiss: 01:15:36

Keep talking to your neighbors.

Babette Faehmel: 01:15:38

Yeah, yeah, that's a good one. Rabbi Matt?

Rabbi Matthew Cutler: 01:15:44

I'm going to offer up a prayer of peace. Sim shalom. Grant us peace, and may that be achieved through tova uvracha. Goodness and blessing. Chen chesed v'rachamim. Grace, compassion, understanding, and kindness. This is a work in progress. (Agreement) The Jewish tradition says we're not obligated to complete the task, but we're not exempt from doing our fair share. 

Babette Faehmel: 01:16:14

Oh, I love that. Yeah, yeah. Try to do good in the full realization that every day you will probably fail—and then you get up and you try again, and you try again. 

Dr. Ahmad Abu-Hakmeh: 01:16:30

Yeah, I mean definitely. There's plenty of prayers that can be said, so thank you for putting that in the conversation. Um…yeah, I'm kind of at a loss of words right now. 

Babette Faehmel: 01:16:44

That's absolutely okay. 

Well, in that case, I mean, yeah—. No, I can totally understand. We didn't solve anything, but we had an important conversation. So let me thank you once again.

Cooper, Rabbi Matt, Paula and Ahmad: I feel it was an honor to have this conversation with you today. Thank you so much.

Rabbi Matthew Cutler: 01:17:09

Thank you.

Cooper Patschureck: 01:17:09

Thank you.

Paula Weiss: 01:17:10

Thank you very much for making this possible.

Babette Faehmel: 01:17:11

Salaam and shalom, right? So, have a fantastic rest of your day. 

Babette Faehmel: 01:17:22

The views voiced on this episode reflect the lived experiences and uncensored opinions of the guests. They do not necessarily capture the full diversity of attitudes within a larger community, nor do they express an official view of SUNY Schenectady. Many Voices, One Call is made possible thanks to the contributions of the SUNY Schenectady Foundation. We are especially grateful for the School of Music and in particular Stan Isaacson's continuing generous support with the technical details. The recording and editing of the podcast was possible thanks to music students: Rowan Breen and Evan Curcio. Heather Meany, Karen Tanski, and Jessica McHugh-Green deserve credit for promoting the podcast. Thanks also go to Vice President of Academic Affairs Mark Meacham, College President Steady Moono, the Student Government Association, and the Student Activities Advisor. Please stay tuned for more episodes where you get your podcasts.