Many Voices - One Call: Season Three/Episode One: Feel-Good History or Honest History?

For a couple of years now, legislators in a number of states have proposed - and at times passed - legislation aimed at restricting what topics and subjects should be allowed in K-12 history classes. Many of these efforts are aimed at controlling how much students should be permitted to learn about so called “divisive concepts”: race/racism, the history of sexuality, or LGBTQIA+ experiences. Recently, the state of Florida attempted to extend these efforts to regulate academic freedom into higher education, and although a federal appeals court, in March 2023, declared the "Stop W.O.K.E. Act" unconstitutional, many educators and academic freedom advocates fear for the future of honest classroom discussion and research.   

For this first student-produced and moderated episode of Many Voices, One Call, history concentration majors Grace, Alexa, Roman and Jessabelle interviewed educator and equity advocate Thearse McCalmon, Professor of History Dr. Dean Bennett, SUNY Schenectady student and former history teacher Joseph Berlant, as well as William Ernst and Michael Asbury with the organization Braver Angels about what the current debate on teachable topics in history might mean for learning, teaching, and academic speech. 

The recording and editing of the podcast was possible thanks to  Connor Raab and Sten Isachsen at the School of Music. Heather Meaney, Karen Tanski, and Jessica McHugh Green deserve credit for promoting the podcast. We are grateful for the SUNY Schenectady Foundation's continuing financial support. Further thanks go to the School of Music, the Division of Liberal Arts, and the REACH Initiative at SUNY Schenectady.

This has been a project for the course HIS 250-01: Topics in History: The American Revolution, at SUNY Schenectady (Spring 2023) 

The views voiced on this episode reflect the lived experiences and uncensored opinions of the guests; they do not necessarily capture the full diversity of attitudes within a larger community, nor do they express an official view of SUNY Schenectady.

Transcript

Babette Faehmel, Co-Host: 00:05

Welcome to season 3, episode 1 of SUNY Schenectady's diversity, equity, inclusion, and social justice podcast, Many Voices, One Call. My name is Babette Faehmel, History Professor, and usually I am one of the hosts. This episode is solely moderated by students from our Capstone Seminar and the History Concentration, and they are Grace, Roman, and Alexa. Also, part of the team is Jessabelle, who was not in front of the microphone, but who assisted all along the way. The topic of the episode is history, or to be precise, whose histories we should be telling, learning, and teaching about, and who should decide. The students will now take it from here. 

Grace, Co-Host: 00:53

So, thank you for joining us today for this discussion on diversity, equity, and inclusion in education and in teaching history. I'd like to start by asking everyone to introduce themselves. I'm Grace. I'm a student here at SUNY Schenectady studying history.

Joseph Berlant, Guest: 01:10

And I'm Joe. I'm also a student. I'm a senior auditor here. I've taught social studies back in the antediluvian days and—as some of the class knows—I have a cousin who taught for a number of years in the New York City school district system. And he also produced two textbooks for a Regents exam study back in the 1950s in American history and world history. 

Dr. Dean Bennett, Guest: 01:42

Hi, and this is Dean Bennett. I'm a professor here at SUNY Schenectady. I teach Western Civilization and World Civilization courses, and some electives too, like Russian History, or the European Witch Trials, Chinese History—I'm doing a course on the Vikings right now. So, just full disclosure: I don't teach, usually, American history, even though American history topics will certainly come up. 

Thearse McCalmon, Guest: 02:09

My name is Thearse McCalmon. I am a former student of SCCC, and I think I've taken every single class that Dean had to offer. I think I have. And I currently am a history teacher. I should say I'm a history teacher in my degree—but I actually teach adult ed—so I teach every single subject. And I'm also a local—I hate to say it, but I guess that's how they have me listed in Google, if you were to ever Google me—I'm a local politician. I did run for a few offices here in Schenectady and also with the state, and I also do political consultation. So, I do a lot of things.

Alexa, Co-host: 02:47

My name is Alexa. I'm a student at SUNY Schenectady, and my major is history. 

Mike Asbury, Guest: 02:57

My name is Mike Asbury. I'm co-chair of the Capital Region of New York Alliance of Braver Angels. And we are an organization, nationally, which aims to use family therapy principles to assist folks across political divides to learn to listen to each other and learn from one another, while still retaining our own opinions. 

Bill Ernst, Guest: 03:22

Hey, I'm Bill Ernst. I'm not an educator at all. I'm not a historian or a history buff, although I do read a lot of history. I am also from Braver Angels. I'm the balance to Mike. I am from the red side, and we have learned to talk to each other civilly and respectfully and with open minds, which is a major function of the Braver Angels organization. We're about 10,000 strong in the United States, sprinkled through all of the states. And it's new to me, this Braver Angels, but it has helped me to understand why we have become so polarized, and why there is not civility between learned people. 

Roman, Co-host: 04:15

And my name is Roman. I'm in my final semester here in the teacher education program. 

Grace: 04:20

So, I'd like to start with the question of how aware you are of the controversy surrounding education in today's environment. 

Dean Bennett: 04:30

Well, I assume we're going to be dealing with the particulars in various questions. But in the biggest sense, count me in as someone who thinks that discussion, and openness, and freedom of speech are basic requirements for both sides or all sides in this polarized environment to get along and cooperate—compromise if necessary. So, in general, I'm in favor of open and free conduct of education, with minimal to no political intervention and dictation. 

Thearse McCalmon: 05:12

Agreed, agreed. I ditto that. And also, this is not a new topic. This education and how we educate our youth—and society period—has always been an issue. There's always been someone who—or a group of persons—who disagree with what should be taught and what should not be taught. So, it's an enduring issue—we're using social studies terms. It's an enduring issue that I think it's going to never really have a solid solution. But in my opinion, I do think that teaching our youth as much as we can on certain levels, as much as they can handle in different grade levels, and keeping it as open as possible, telling all sides of the story and not just the winner's side, I think is very essential. 

Joseph Berlant: 06:14

I think that one of the things that we've talked about in the class is the ability to have not just free speech, but academic freedom, that students learn by having discussions. And I think that what you're doing with the Braver Angels is the type of thing—to be able to have a discussion and to be able to learn from that discussion is one of the key features of education. If you're going to be able to do that, then you have to be able to talk about items that are unpleasant to some people, but you do it in a fashion that people are going to be able to learn from that, not to be able to dictate that this is the only way. 

Thearse McCalmon: 07:03

Exactly. 

Bill Ernst: 07:05

That is one of the principles that in our discussions, we are not to dominate the other person or to imbibe a certain thought that they must adhere to or believe. It is so that we can have an open discussion. Open discussion is just not truth and facts, it's also fairness, which means that both parties have an opportunity to present their ideas and their thoughts, and they are not neither right nor wrong, but they are their thoughts, and because of that you respect the person that has spoken. You don't try to override them, you don't try to drown them out, you listen to them. Not only do you listen, but you take it into your brain, you mush it around a little bit, and then you stop thinking about what they have said. If you, the person is not listening, which just doesn't mean an oral—I mean an oral argument that goes into the ears...

Thearse McCalmon: 08:01

One ear, and out the other. (Laughs.)

Bill Ernst: 08:04

...It goes into your brain, and you mesh it around with other things you've learned or known, the history that you've had, the experiences that you've had, and you draw a conclusion. So, I think what has just been said is certainly—I'm responding to and is important in having an open discussion that is not just truthful, but it is fair for both sides. 

Mike Asbury: 08:26

One of the things that we like to do is quote Abraham Lincoln in Braver Angels. One of the pithier quotes and one of my favorites is this one: “I don't like that man. I have to get to know him better.” And he didn't like that man, and he did get to know him better. He had people of the opposite party on his cabinet. 

Thearse McCalmon: 08:51

Yep, yep, was that Seward? He said that about a couple of them. Was that Seward, in particular? 

Mike Asbury: 08:56

A bunch of them. (McCalmon agrees.) Opponents. Electoral opponents. 

Grace: 09:01

So, I want to go back to a point that Joe mentioned with what topics are being taught and I'm wondering how you would define academically as—. Sorry, I'm going to restart that question. I want to go back to a point Joe made about what topics are being taught and I'm wondering what topics are academically significant to what's being taught. 

Thearse McCalmon: 09:20

That's a broad question. 

Dean Bennett: 09:22

Dean here. Can I start? 

Grace: 09:26

We thought about you when we came up with this. 

Dean Bennett: 09:22

First of all, I would call this a deeply philosophical question. (Thearse agrees.)  What's historically significant and worth studying? I mean, history encompasses almost everything, and I mean, on the one hand, everything is trivial and on the other hand, everything is meaningful. And it's—. In practice at the college, it's a combination really of the teacher and the student, and I mean there's a role for the teacher, because students very often might not even be aware of what is significant or events that are deep, that are filled with meaning and impact, and so the teacher's job is to bring those up and expose students to this or that: the Irish potato famine, China's cultural revolution, the witch trials, and so on, and so forth. And then the students—ideally there's a role for students to further investigate and find meaning in those events of their own and a chance to express that in written work or papers or things like that. So, it's a combination of guidance, based in some expertise—although we all could know more—but guidance and also exploration on the student's part. 

[10:51]

And I mean what kinds of things are significant? Well, I mean, what great mistakes were made in the past and how can we learn from that? Or I mean, for example, studying the Black Death. In some ways that just seems like, ‘oh neato, that's just trivia.’ And then COVID strikes, and we realize that what we know about the Black Death informs on a deepest level our attitude. My first response was, ‘oh my gosh, see? We really are part of nature.’ And I mean we understand nature—partly at our relationship to nature—from studying history. And we're not surprised necessarily, and we deal—maybe better—because we investigated that topic. Just a few examples there.

Thearse McCalmon: 11:40

Can I just kind of latch on to that a little bit. So, I'll speak from a student, teacher, and mentor—learning from my mentor and then as a teacher—but I'll be brief. So, when I was a student teacher and I was in my classroom—my student teaching classroom—and my mentor was there, I would sit and watch her teach the classes, eighth grade, and she would, you know, go over certain topics. And then I'm like, ‘oh my gosh, yeah, when I get up there, I'm going to do that,’ but, you know, put my own little spin on it, whatever. And then at the end she would give me an evaluation of how I did with the material and how I interacted with the students. And she made a comment to me. She said, ‘I see how eager you are to like, educate and, you know, involve the students and they respond wonderfully to that.’ 

[12:47]

And she said, ‘but you have to kind of keep it reserved, like you want to give them all this information, but we just don't have time or there's certain things that we have to get to.’ And if you, especially with eighth graders—oh my gosh. You pose anything and it's just going to—they got questions coming out of the top of their brain and they want to keep going on whatever attracts their attention. So, as you said—so, you have to reserve a lot of that information. Eventually, when they get to college or whatever, it'll be expanded. So, you have to—. It's a time frame, it's a time limit and it's also educational limit. You'll be there all day on one topic. And then, as an educator, as I'm teaching—actually, not too long ago, a few weeks ago—we spoke about the black plague as its effects on Europe and the world and also comparing it to COVID. In my classroom, again, I teach BOCES, and I teach adult ed. So, I actually teach from the lowest level, first grade levels, all the way up to college—well, high school I should say, so they can pass their GED. So, even in that role, I still have to keep in mind the timeframe and the limit on the subjects. But when you guys, you know, pose these questions to us, I had to think about all of my roles: student, teacher, educator—my current role is adult education. 

[14:00]

And I said kind of what Dean said: again, the most significant historical events are not realized for the most part until years later, after they've happened, and then we realize how important they are to our society—like even with the Black Plague. Something as simple as the pencil—the function of a pencil, that tool, like it, wasn't fully realized until, like you know, we're like, ‘oh wow, we've got, like, a writing tool. We don't have to use a chisel and hammer. (laughs.) We've got something important.’ Even the internet, when that was being realized, we didn't really realize the significance or the usefulness of that—rubber in itself. So, you have to ask yourself: what is important at the moment to teach students, what would make them more successful, and how to move forward in those subjects without giving them the ABCDs of every single thing? 

[14:56]

And I guess the significance of certain topics will not ever really be—. I mean, we can argue about what should be taught and what should not be taught, but we won't know exactly what we're doing, whether it's right or not, until like maybe 50, 100 years in the future, when our descendants are looking back on us and saying, ‘well, why did they do that or why didn't they do that?’ Like how we look back on our ancestors and say, ‘well, why didn't they just do it this way? Or why couldn't they see the other side?’ Like you said. Like listen, sit down and listen and, you know, these are the topics that were most important for your time. We're actually not really going to know until we're dust and our ancestors—or our descendants—are looking back on us like, ‘if you guys would have, just, you know, hung on to that one subject or taught more specifically in that academic area, I think that we would have been better off in the future.’ But who knows? 

Mike Asbury: 15:56

Hi, Mike here again with Braver Angels. It occurs to me one aspect or one approach to education of history and this question of controversy—in today's environment—might be addressed using the principles that Braver Angels applies. For example, there are a number of sources of polarization in today's world. I just briefly go through them: there are the end of the Cold War, increasing ethnic diversity, identity, group politics, political donors, gerrymandering, media ghettos. 

[16:37]

One approach that occurs to me that might apply here is, in Braver Angels what we try to do is identify with the others of opposite opinions. Put ourselves in their shoes and it takes time, and it takes work, it takes patience and listening. So, for example, if you're a slave owner in 1850, and the Civil War is coming around and Jefferson Davis says,’ we've got to get out of this thing,’ and you have all this money wrapped up in people that you own. You know, the North is looking at this and going, ‘this is abhorrent,’ but the people who have the money wrapped up are worried about losing their money. They're worried about losing their wealth. That's why they went to war. It wasn't for states' rights. And so, what would it be like to have money, your wealth, your name and all this wrapped up? Moral issues aside —for just a moment—and consider that from the standpoint of the argument. As well as, in the same class, looking at what it would be like to be a slave. 

Grace: 17:57

We've been talking about this a lot in our history class, which is focused on American Revolution, and how we recently had an assignment about the perspective of the loyalists during the revolution also. And learning from the different sides of history and how that influences how people go to war. 

Thearse McCalmon: 18:15

Did you also—? Because I do this also when we're doing Westward Expansion. I don't only just teach what the curriculum says, but we also do perspectives. And we've done perspectives from the side of the native folk. So, do you guys do speak about the possible perspective of enslaved folks? 

Roman: 18:36

Yeah, we generally—like, we try to focus on as many people as we can in each side of history.

Grace: 18:46

We've been learning about the new social historiography of the revolution, which focuses on people other than the founding fathers. So, we've talked a lot about Native American involvement and African American involvement in the revolution. We've also talked about other groups that you may not have known were involved in the revolution, like German mercenaries that were sent over, and that's really interesting to hear how many other people...

Thearse McCalmon: 19:13

I think also, in teaching topics besides perspectives and making students aware of, not like just of the North and South for instance in the Civil War—but also language. Like, how we have been taught in school to address those people, like when you spoke about those who owned people in the South. When I was director of the Underground Railroad History Project here in Albany, we talked about dispelling myths and also language. When you speak about slaves you delete the human. That's over that—. That kind of hovers over the person. That slave word, it drowns out the human person that was actually enslaved. 

[20:14]

So, I think when we are educating, it's not only just having a discussion, listening to other folk. But it's also when we are educating that we are not only just using perspectives, but we are careful about the language that is institutionalized in education and also balancing that out with the human aspect of it. Who are the people who are affected by these historic events? When you talk about slaves, you're not speaking about slaves, because it's not like they woke up one day and say, ‘Hey, Mom, I want to be a slave.’ It's not a title. You're speaking about enslaved persons or freedom seekers, those who decided, ‘I've had enough of this mess and I'm leaving.’ You know, freedom seekers. So, I think, besides perspectives, we also have to look into the language. 

[21:03]

Why did we choose that? And it's mostly because—famous quote—history is written by the winners. You don't want to put a human aspect on those that you have oppressed or those that have been the bottom rung of your success—like whose shoulders you stood on to get where you have to go. And I also want to say one thing—and I hope other educators are doing this too—because when I educate about the civil war, it was not about states' rights, it was about money. That's what it was about. It's just the North saw an opportunity to—because it's a Christian nation, right? —to put that moral debt on people and say, ‘you're a Christian, you're a God-fearing person. How could you do this to another human being?’ And that's pretty much, in short, what brought us to the Civil War. 

Bill Ernst: 22:01

Thearse, this is Bill. 

Thearse McCalmon: 22:03

Hey Bill. 

Bill Ernst: 22:04

Hi. I think that there are many facets in looking back at history, and one of those is, that I think needs to be added to the discussion, is that at that time—. We are trying to evaluate what has happened hundreds of years ago by some of the things that we know and understand now. And that gives a different perspective completely than the people that were making decisions several hundred years ago. I think that also has to be considered when what is truly history, or what is opinion, or what is a use for other purposes. 

Thearse McCalmon: 22:50

Yes. 

Bill Ernst: 22:51

So, I think that's an important consideration. Things that today we would think are completely right they at that time said are wrong. They would have a different idea of what is right and wrong, and so they have to look—. The people that were living 200 years ago, the history they had was from 500 years ago. And I guess a good example, a tremendous example, is Ken Follett. 

[23:14]

I don't know whether you're familiar with historical fiction, but the trilogy—and the precursor to the trilogy—to me, has given me such an understanding of what the pilgrims and the Puritans and the Huguenots that escaped Europe to come here and to set up this wonderful country that we live in—unparalleled in the world—because they had lived through it all, through what was happening in Europe. 

[23:40]

So, that's the history they had, that was the basis for their decisions at that time, and now we have a different history, and we can make different decisions. We can see, ‘gee’—as you were just mentioning Thearse—what happened that more recently has a greater impact than what happened 100 years ago in the decisions that we're making today. And I'm very concerned that political aspects of decisions are overriding the principles on which this country was formed. We were formed with the idea of freedoms for individuals and the consent of the governed. That is the foundation of this country. And, yes, we have not done everything right, as you were mentioning. We have learned, and we are making things better and better. They will never be perfect—that's a myth—but we can get closer to having something that is perfect. So, I think the subjects that you brought up should also include the perception of the people at that time. 

Thearse McCalmon: 24:49

Yeah, if I wasn't clear, that's what I meant. So, when we're using the language of that history, we're saying this is what they call people, this is what they said, but then we also do not lose the humanistic aspect of the people involved. So, as we teach that history—besides perspective—we also need to make sure that these were actual living folk, these are people that these things were happening to on all sides, and just inform our students that we need to look at it through a lens of like, as if this was our grandparents, our neighbors, you know, people we actually cared about. Because a lot of students do not like history, they don't like learning, because they're like, ‘what does it have to do with me?’ Right? And it's so far removed, it's been hundreds of years ago, right? And it's like well, what does that have to do—? So, you also have to add that in. 

[25:39]

Why is this important? Because everything that we do, the way we speak, the way we dress, the way we think—everyone—the way everyone thinks, whether we think that person is good, thinking good or bad, it doesn't matter. The way we are as human beings today, as a society, is hugely dependent upon our histories and what happened. All the choices, good and bad, have led up to us being in this room and being able to sit down and have this discussion, and using the language that we're using to have this discussion, and a lot of students miss that. They miss that connection. You are who you are because of the decisions that people have made in the past, even a small thing. That's why I say pencil: big tool, big technology, but we miss that. They miss that connection. So, yes, I totally agree. 

Bill Ernst: 26:27

I have a perfect example of that in my seventh-grade history teacher. We would have these little sheets of paper. We would write a question on the front, the answer on the other, the lines of kids on each side of the room. They would compete to see if the other side would know the answer to the question. And for me, at that time, that's what history is all about. But now I look at Ken Follett as my best vision, my best example of what history really is. It's the personal thing. People are driven by greed, sex, power and ego—four big things, maybe there's a better description. And so that's how decisions are made. But those decisions and—I'm talking too long—those are all a reflection of that, because we're humans. And we've had those traits as how we make decisions since humanity was formed—whenever that was. 

Joseph Berlant: 27:24

This is Joe. One of the things that Dean has talked about in some of our historiography classes is fallacies of history, and presentism is a big fallacy. And that is trying to put what we think today on the people, on the past, so that when we start talking—excuse me if I'm sort of disagreeing with you on the thing—is that our founders thought about this great idea of freedom. They thought about freedom for men who were white. That was what they thought about and that's part of the thing that we have to be able to teach. There's a whole other series of fallacies that we have in history that we go through, and another one is that we think that there are single causes for activity. There are multiple causes of activity. 

[28:13]

The Civil War was fought because of economics, but economics was not the only activity that was done. If you look at dealing in this class with the American Revolution, there was a professor in the early 1900s who said that the American Revolution was fought because of economics, the same way that you were talking about the Civil War, and you can see that. But that's not the only basis for going through. And the other quick factor that I wanted to talk about, since we're talking about education. We're talking about different age groups and people learn at different phases and essentially, a lot of what we're talking about is high school and college, but you don't teach somebody who's in first grade in the same manner that you teach somebody who is junior high, or high school, or college. And you try and make the materials that you are doing fit the information that the student has been able to absorb and also their peers—as to who they've been able to discuss things with. 

[29:17]

I grew up in a very, very homogeneous community, Hoosick Falls—which is fairly close to here—but at that point almost everybody came from a similar type background. Schenectady, that is not the case at this point. You have a very, very diverse background. I think the diverser a background that you have, the better off people are to be able to learn about what other cultures are.

Grace: 29:47

Okay. So, we've talked about what should be taught in classrooms, what ideologies and critical thinking skills students should gain from a history education, but I want to bring it back to the question of who should make the decision about what's important. We have a lot of perspectives in the room about politics. So, what should the government involvement be in deciding this curriculum, or should they be involved? So, who should be making this decision about what's being taught in schools? 

Bill Ernst: 30:18

This is Bill. For me that's an easy answer. The parent is responsible for the child until the child is 16, 17, 18—depending on what state you're in. That's sort of a decision all by itself, and so the parents should definitely be involved, because it is their child, they are procreated, they have cared for, they have financed, they have spent loving time with that child. So, I think the parent is the most important ingredient in what the child should be knowing and being taught and the way he is being taught—or he or she is being taught. 

Thearse McCalmon: 30:57

Can I just add to it, because I like the fact that Bob—. (Questioning whisper.) Bill, that's what I said. (Laughs.) Yeah, I don't know what you heard, but I said Bill. 

Okay—and this is Thearse, just in case—Bill said that parents should be involved. From a political aspect, I'm really disappointed in how our government has handled education. Because teachers, educators, administrators, those who have direct contact with students who are in the classroom and parents usually are not the ones involved in the decisions of our regents testing and our test textbook manufacturing. Just—. Mostly it's lawyers, politicians, doctors, whatever, for some reason, I'm sure most—some of them are parents. But I think those who have the most experience in the classroom, with students in the buildings every day, those are the ones who should definitely have the majority of the say when it comes to our curriculum. And then lawmakers and everyone comes like second to last. (Laughs.)

Dean Bennett: 32:18

I have some thoughts on this. This is Dean. So, if history were taught—. Well first, the basis of this—history teaching is based on interpretations. There are many interpretations of American history, many interpretations of the American Revolution and so on and so forth—I was going to make this point later. I mean, you can approach the American Revolution from a social history perspective—like the 1619 Project for example. But there's also the idealistic interpretation which celebrates the principles that people during the American Revolution did take seriously, many of them. You know, for example, responsible government, no taxes without representation, and that kind of thing. And they're two very different ways of looking at things going on. And you have the phenomenon, for example, of a Virginia plantation owner who is, during the Revolutionary War, fighting for what seemed to be admirable principles worthy of celebrating. 

[33:24]

But at the same time, in his mind he's thinking, ‘how can I keep my slaves?’ The British enslaved people. 'The British are going to liberate them.’ Figuring out how he can get his hands on some appropriated Native American lands across the Appalachians as a reward for his participation in the American Revolution. But at the same time, that doesn't mean we throw out the ideas of responsible government and you say, ‘okay, good freedom, this can be extended to more people than what you imagine.’ 

Anyway, the point I'm getting at is there are many interpretations. And to your point about parents' concerns—if in fact, education is being dictated to, saying you will apply this interpretation and this interpretation alone, then that would be indoctrination and the concern of parents. 

[34:20]

I mean, in a way that turns school into church. It turns school into being taught, ‘these are the right answers, and these are the wrong answers, and there's going to be no deviation from this.’ And I think this is the fears that people have. They're afraid that their children are being indoctrinated in one particular thing. But if they could be assured that, ‘no, this is open investigation and there is freedom to entertain and weigh the various interpretations,’ I think that is much more palatable and far less threatening. And so, in some ways, the burden of convincing people might be on educators. Really, we're not this caricature that you fear. A lot of parents and politicians have this phantom image of the dogmatic teacher who is beating one message into their students, and I think that's more in their fears than in the reality. Most teachers do not wish to impose on their students that way. 

Grace: 35:30

I think that goes back to an earlier point that was made about how teachers are supposed to expose students to new topics and show them different sides of a situation. 

Dean Bennett: 35:41

And so, to sum up, I think it's important that the politicians also get them. The politicians should be aware and impose as little as possible on the classroom. 

Thearse McCalmon: 35:52

Second to last, as I said yes, I just want to add to that. So, speaking from a political perspective as well, when I ran for office—and I ran on how we can be more inclusive in our community of all people and making sure that, when we're doing community development projects, that every community is not the same. Every community requires different things. Same as in my classroom. If you're a teacher, you need to be able to understand the community of your classroom and be able to educate to that. The same thing if you want to be a politician, you want to be a leader, you need to understand the community that you want to represent and understand that every community does not have the same needs as their next-door neighbor, even if they're one street apart. So, in order for you to understand that, when you're putting forward these ideas of change, there's an aspect of education, and in order to do that, you need to invite people to the table, not just everyone who voted for you, not just everyone who agrees with you, but those who will be affected by this. 

[36:57]

And I think when we're trying to figure out how to educate our youth, our children—even adult children—we have to remember that they come from a very particular background and we have to invite that into our classroom, into our decisions of what we're going to educate them on, how we're going to educate them on. Bring that community to the table and say listen—I mean you can't please everyone, I know this, and this is kind of pie in the sky, but this is my fantasy world of all community—but invite everyone to the table and say, ‘this is how we want to move forward. What do you think?’ Try to at least listen to as many perspectives as possible and integrate that into your education plans and then take that to the lawmakers, ‘blah, blah, blah.’ This is my pie in the sky—mind you guys, this is my fantasy world. But I think that just including people who actually are going to be affected by whatever decisions we make on the education side, they need to be at the table, they need to hear how we're educating, what we're educating, and also the conversations that we're having in the classrooms. We need to have that. 

Mike Asbury: 38:13

Do I have time? 

Grace: 38:14

Yeah, I had a different question. 

Mike Asbury: 38:15

Do you have another question? 

Grace: 38:17

Well, I was wondering, how could that invitation of a diversified curriculum impact students in society? 

Mike Asbury: 38:25

Invitation of a diversified curriculum impacts students and society. Well, I think it comes back to the leaders. The leaders have a responsibility here, the leaders being educational leaders, civic leaders, parental leaders, student leaders, political local folk, board of education, and what their responsibility seems to me to be is to be able to articulate opposite to their opinion. Can they really do that and honestly do that? If they can...if they can, we will find progress. I think that's been a missing element in history. As we know, the old saying, ‘the one thing we learn from history repeating itself is this: history repeats itself.’ And so, if we can break that chain of the ego running the show. If a real leader steps up, it can say, ‘I heard the other side say this. Is that correct?’ Then we'll get somewhere. 

Thearse McCalmon: 39:37

Yeah. 

Dean Bennett: 39:38

Dean here. I'd like to boil this down to maybe one word—maybe that's oversimplifying—but empathy. Just exposure to many, many different human experiences from people that you feel you have little in common with generates this feeling of common humanity. And suddenly people whose feeling well— yeah, a diversified curriculum increases empathy, and that comes with all kinds of good. 

Grace: 40:13

We talked last semester in both Western Civilization and Russian History about historical empathy and I thought it was interesting how it evolved our understanding of those moments in history. 

Dean Bennett: 40:25

Yeah, the opposite of historical empathy is a kind of dehumanization where you don't really care about people that you don't know and have nothing to do with. But when you study history, you actually—your own identity changes because you internalize other people's experiences. And you're actually—. With good history study you become a different person and you're more capable of understanding other people's concerns and maybe doing something about it. 

Grace: 40:56

I think that goes back to the Braver Angels ideal of having an open mind and listening to these topics. 

Joseph Berlant: 41:02

But Dean—this is Joe—what you're talking about really is education. In other words, having an open mind going through education. And that's the basic topic that we're talking about, because the discussion that's going on, that the class has been working with, is that we are seeing restrictions on that open discussion. We see that in Florida. We see that in Texas. We've seen that in other states. The comment that I made just as we started, we're starting to see it, going down to the elementary school level—like in Alabama, where they're saying that you can't do this type of thing. 

Dean Bennett: 41:38

Can I interject? (Joseph agrees.) If you want to get cynical about it, one might even suspect that they don't want students to feel empathy for gay people or empathy for Black Americans, that the empathy itself is a political concern for people who want to keep things as they are. 

Joseph Berlant: 41:57

Yeah, and you stated that earlier on, the type of thing that was going on when people were making, instead of education, they've made it a religion. In that it is a belief structure that they have, rather than an informational-based structure that goes on. And that, I think, is part of the discussion that we're doing. I would agree that parents play a large role in education, but I don't think that they play the only role in education, especially the aspect as to how you teach.  Most parents who are not teachers have no idea of the methodology, the psychology of students, and they have to know that. When I did my student teaching in my education—50, 60 years ago—they weren't teaching that type of thing, and I see what they're doing here at the School of Education. 

[42:49]

Here they're doing much more concern as to how students learn. The thing that sort of surprised me is what do you do—and there's a good example here in the class—what do you do if you have a student who can't hear very well? How do you teach that student if you are talking to the students and they're not going to be able to hear you? And we can go with numerous types of situations on that. So, a teacher has to learn a great deal on their own to be able to—more than the normal person—how to be able to deal with children at specific age levels. 

Thearse McCalmon: 43:28

I think, Joe, that also goes to my point of, especially with the Florida, all the southern states that are doing—in our opinion—crazy things. I can be the devil's advocate on my own point and say that's a good example of parents being too involved in the decisions on education. And also, the other negative aspect of parents having too much say—or even community members having too much say—on educational decisions, is the fact that when students leave the school building, they go home to that. And that doctrine—or whatever dogma or whatever—and that's what they're being educated at home. 

[44:11]

And we all know young people's brains are sponges—you know, not fully developed until 27 or something like that—and they absorb all of that stuff at home and that's what they bring to class. And unfortunately, they end up cheering along those leaders and parents and educators—also included in that bunch—that say, ‘this is not good for you, we shouldn't be teaching about or even accepting LGBTQ rights or anything like that in our educational system, because it goes against what we taught you.’ And they end up advocating against themselves because of the over-involvement of certain educators, certain teachers, and other community members that have that strong grip on their brains. 

Joseph Berlant: 44:58

Therese, what I would say is that that means that school is not teaching critical thinking, and we talked very, very beginning critical thinking, and that's one of the important items and that's what brighter angels is essentially also talking about. Besides empathy and being able to talk, is to be able to encourage them to be able to critically think. And the problem, not just with parents but with other people banning books is a consequence of this, and if you ban books—. You talked about Ken Follett, if you decide that Ken Follett is writing something that you're not interested in and you say we can't have any of Ken Follett's books in the library and our kids can't read them, you're just limiting yourself and you're limiting the students. 

Thearse McCalmon: 45:47

I meet with certain classes. I often get invited into schools and we have a discussion. I've been doing this for over 20 years. I try to make my mark, wherever I can, as much as I can, in our youth's lives to give them those outside perspectives of what they're learning in school. And also, to impart on them why, even though the education they're receiving may be very Eurocentric, it's important to understand all of the aspects of that Eurocentric education and why is it important to them, especially as youth of students of color, of all spectrums. And also, in my own classroom—because you stated earlier—can an educator teach a subject that they don't agree with and honestly teach it? Yes, come to my class, you'll see that. Yes, I do it every single day, all the time with my students and they're always amazed. And actually, I just got—I'm proud to boast about this—my students gave me a round of applause one day because of the level of education I was giving them, because they were all being told that they were here, and I brought them up to here. 

[47:11]

You know, some begrudgingly, but I said you can do this, and also the aspect of like, I can play the bad guy, the good guy, whichever perspective they're looking from, and say this is the thinking on this and this is the thinking on this. And they're like, ‘Miss T, like, do you believe that?’ Like, for the most part, they go, ‘You don't really believe that? You sound, like, really convincing.’ I go, ‘no, but I need to educate you on this. This is how some people with this ideal, this is what the argument will be, this is what they think, and this is the opposite.’ So, yes, it happens in my classroom all the time and I try my best to spread that throughout the community to make sure that all sides are being heard and we can make an educational decision moving forward. 

Dean Bennett: 47:52

Thearse, this is Dean. Sometimes I'm sure I confuse my students—and confuse myself—because I might be laying out an exposition on the appeal of Marxism and it will sound very appealing, and full disclosure, I'm not a Marxist. Or world religions, going through Buddhism or Islam or Christianity or whatever. I used to be Christian, now I'm atheist. But I'll say, try to pin me down, it'll be hard for you to figure out where I stand. In a lot of cases, I don't know where I stand. 

Thearse McCalmon: 48:30

I see you, Grace. I just want to add to that when I was deciding what type of teacher I want to be, I had those educators in my life as a student that taught me everything that I did not like. That did not work for me, did not work for a lot of students, and I was like, absolutely not, that's not the educator I want to be. But I can tell you a lot of the tools and the philosophies or how Dean teaches—definitely I do imitate a lot of that in my class and I find that it works a lot. I reach a lot more perspectives, a lot of students because of that. So that's a compliment to you.

Dean Bennett: 49:07

Gosh, thanks. 

Grace: 49:08

Yeah, so we've talked a lot about what should be taught in classrooms, about critical thinking in classrooms, and what diversified topics students should be exposed to. We've talked about who should be involved in deciding what they're educated on, whether it's parents or government or educators. I'm wondering how this conversation changes when we're talking about the high school level compared to the college level education. 

Thearse McCalmon: 49:34

I don't think I was being exclusive. I don't think that I was excluding any specific level of education, but if you're speaking about high schoolers, where high school is pretty much a prep school. We're preparing them for college, so we have to get them into thinking more of their predominant society unfortunately—I hate to say that, but that's pretty much what it is. Fortunately, though, because the way that our student teachers are being educated, it's not one-sided, we can actually have those empathetic conversations, more so on an adult level, with our high schoolers. I would say adult level meaning 11th grade, 12th grade. On 9th and 10th grade, they're still getting used to the curriculum.

[50:23]

I don't think certain subjects can be really fleshed out with 9th and 10th graders as much as you can do with 11th graders and 12th graders, and I think that's really put—I hate to put myself in a corner that way. But when it comes to high schoolers, I think that you have a better chance of teaching a diversified curriculum and actually getting some good conversation and feedback because students at that level are getting more settled into who they are and what they think and how they see their world, their community, their family, their friends. And they'll be more expressive, I think, in that, and either more receptive or non-receptive, and I think you can have a good discussion or argument, however you want to see it, in a high school level. 

Dean Bennett: 51:11

And I'll just add here—Dean—that kind of agreeing with both that a lot of times high school is the last crack we historians have at them, because even if they do go to college, a lot of times they've done AP courses or got college in high school credit and so forth and they're not going to take another history class in their life. So yeah, a lot of formation happens in high school—adult formation, exploring, identity forming. 

Mike Asbury: 51:40

Mike Asbury again, with Braver Angels. There is a partnership occurring soon with an organization known as Bridge USA. Braver Angels does partner with groups that do similar work, and Bridge USA is specifically aiming to high school students, to teach them the principles that we're talking about here: critical thinking, empathy, understanding, and listening. 

Grace: 52:08

So, the next question is for Alexa and Roman. As students, do you fear that your own right to learn and be informed about up-to-date or even new scholarship might be affected by the current debate? 

Roman: 52:23

Lately, yes. I wouldn't have said that a year ago. But following, like, my own perspective—following political and the news cycle—is that some states, I'm sorry to say usually Republican, want to suppress certain information about historical topics or present-day topics. 

Alexa: 52:48

Yeah, I agree with that. 

Grace: 52:50

We're coming to the end of our time in the studio. I'd like to thank our guests for joining us for this insightful discussion about—. 

Mike Asbury: 52:56

Thank you for having us. 

Grace: 52:57

Yeah. 

Roman: 53:03

I concur. Thank you for contributing to the discussion about representation in historical debates, and present-day debates, and educational diversity, and all that kind of stuff. It's very important that we have this conversation instead of turning a blind eye to it and shoving in the corner. 

Thearse McCalmon: 53:22

I agree. 

Dean Bennett: 53:24

Thanks.

Alexa: 53:24

Yeah.

Joseph Berlant: 53:24

And hopefully this has given the class a little bit more insight into what we've been studying, which is the American Revolution. and reading the original sources John Adams and some of the other people as to what they were writing and what they were thinking about—and I have to also include Abigail too. 

Grace: 53:49

Any final thoughts? 

Dean Bennett: 53:52

I just want to sum up that I appreciate the work you do. Brave what? 

Thearse McCalmon: 53:57

Angels.

Dean Bennett: 53:58

Brave Angels, yeah. And in spirit, I'm with you. We need to find refuge, I think, in the principles that have served us very well. And there are people who, because they want power, are willing to ignore those. There are people who are afraid, and we have to acknowledge those fears, and talk through it and in some ways disarm the fears, and we do this by coming together and finding common ground. To some people this might seem spineless or lacking principles. I mean, it's a tough road to be a centrist in this country right now.

Mike Asbury: 54:51

It's not spineless, the opposite. 

Dean Bennett: 54:53

But the polarization is a recipe for disaster. 

Bill Ernst: 55:00

My thoughts, just in summary, for the three students here—or many students actually, we're all students of life. My thoughts are that, if we remember that education is not—. It is—. Gotta say this in the right way: That education really is teaching people how to think and having diverse sources of information from both sides, and that is a principle we should all of us put into play over and over again. Get all of the information from both sides and in that way, education is truly how to think, not what to think. 

We make up our own decisions about what to think, but we can't do that until we get from both sides. That is critical. That's really one of the principles of Braver Angels: that we listen, and we absorb, and we toss in our minds before we reach a decision. 

Joseph Berlant: 56:03

And—Joe—and that continues after school. It continues all lifelong. 

Thearse McCalmon: 56:10

I think, if anything, that those who are listening to this podcast, what you take from this is to try your best to listen. Education inside and outside the classroom, lifelong, is all about listening and not just listening to argue, because a lot of people say I am listening, but they're listening to argue to say, ‘oh yeah, I'm arguing you on that point.’ Oh, yeah, yeah, it's listening to understand, listening with empathy. And also, what I often do, because sometimes I misunderstand, I'll ask clarifying questions. Education is also about asking questions, but not asking questions to argue a fight, but asking questions again to do that listening to understand. If anything, in all education, ask questions and listen to understand. 

Bill Ernst: 57:02

I tell my son, who is a little bit tenuous about things. I said, ‘Damon, the smartest people in the room ask the most questions.’ It's not an indication that you don't know. It's an indication that you want to know. That's so much more important. 

Grace: 57:18

We got to wrap this up. (Cross talk) Thank you.

Thearse McCalmon: 57:21

Thank you, thank you for having us.

Bill Ernst: 57:22

Thanks so much. 

Alexa: 57:28

Thank you for listening to the student-produced episode of SUNY Schenectady Community College's podcast Many Voices, One Call. We'd like to thank Thearse McCalmon, Dr. Dean Bennett, Joe Berland, as well as William Ernst and Michael Asbury with the organization Braver Angels, for participating in this episode on the role of diversity in history education. Our professor, Dr. Babette Faehmel, has worked with us every step of the way in the production of this podcast episode. 

Roman: 58:04

The recording and editing of this podcast was possible thanks to Connor Rabb and Sten Isaacson at the School of Music. Heather Meaney, Karen Tanski, and Jessica McHugh-Green are responsible for promoting the podcast. 

Jessabelle: 58:08

The SUNY Schenectady Foundation has provided financial support. We would also like to thank the School of Music, the Division of Liberal Arts, and the REACH Initiative for making this podcast possible. This has been a project for the course History 250: Topics in History: The American Revolution at SUNY Schenectady. Grace, Alexa, Jess, and Roman have co-produced this episode, and it's been a pleasure. To find more episodes like this one, search for Many Voices, One Call on Spotify.