Many Voices - One Call: Season Two/Episode seven: The Moves that Matter

When it comes to the topic of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion, we often focus on all those things we are not doing. But what are we doing that is working? What are the practices, policies, and opportunities that our students want because they see them as essential to their success? On this episode, join co-hosts Babette Faehmel, Professor in the Division of Liberal Arts, and Amira Stevens-Salih, student in the Business, Criminal Justice and Law Division, to learn about "the moves that matter."

This episode features guest contributors Interim Chief Diversity Officer Alicia Richardson, Math and Science student Sara Nava, Student Government Association President Jennifer Diaz-Diego, SUNY alumnus and current Delhi student Arthur Echevarria, as well as Val, President of SUNY Schenectady's Pride Alliance, Vice President of the Student Drama Club, and Student Tutor.  

SUNY School of Music students Aidan Bachorik and Aidan Farley recorded, edited, and mixed the episode. 

The views voiced on this episode reflect the lived experiences and uncensored opinions of the guests; they do not necessarily capture the full diversity of attitudes within a larger community, nor do they express an official view of SUNY Schenectady.

Transcript

Babette Faehmel, Co-Host: 00:04

Welcome to SUNY Schenectady's diversity, equity, inclusion, and social justice podcast. Many Voices, One Call. I'm one of your hosts, Babette Faehmel, History Professor and Coordinator of the Student Mentoring Program, and I'm really excited today to introduce a new student co-host, Amira Stevens. Amira, do you want to say a few things about who you are? 

Amira Stevens-Salih, Co-Host: 00:25

Yeah, sure. I'm Amira. I'm a Criminal Justice major. It's actually my last semester here, and when I transfer I plan on studying psychology—probably at UAlbany.

Babette Faehmel: 00:36

Oka. All right. Well, Amira is not really saying half of what she's doing. So, you used to be the president of the Criminal Justice Student Club. Are you still doing that?

Amira Stevens-Salih: 00:47

The vice president. Yes, we're actually starting it back up this semester. We're getting together our first meeting. We're not sure what time is going to work best for everyone yet, but we're working on that. 

Babette Faehmel: 00:59

Awesome. All right. How about we go around the room and everybody introduces themselves?

Jennifer Diaz-Diego, Guest: 01:06

All right. Well, I'm Jenny. I'm the current SGA president. I am studying biology on a pre-med track and that's pretty much me. 

Babette Faehmel: 01:16

Cool. Cool, cool, cool.

Sara Nava, Guest: 01:18

My name is Sara. I'm originally from Venezuela. I came to the country when I was 10. I'm studying math and science. Hopefully, I want to get into pharmacy school, so that's what I'm doing right now. 

Alicia Richardson, Guest: 01:36

My name is Alicia Richardson, and I am the Interim Chief Diversity Officer here at SUNY Schenectady. I have been here for just over 10 years, and I've been in this role for just under two.

Arthur Echevarria, Guest: 01:49

Arthur Echevarria. I am a culinary alum here, so I graduated the Culinary program and also the Hotel Restaurant Management program. I am currently a Delhi student with the program Stay Close, Go Far—hopefully to get my business degree in the fall of 2023. Just trying to get the degree. I've been in the industry for too long and I'm just trying to get the accolades to back up my experience.

Babette Faehmel: 02:21

Okay. Okay. And Val.

Val, Guest: 02:23

I'm Val. I'm a Music Audio Technology student. I'm the secretary and a senator on SGA. I'm president of Pride Club. I'm vice president of Drama Club. I'm a student tutor. I'm around. 

Babette Faehmel: 02:40

Oh, you're a student tutor. I didn't know that. What subjects do you tutor?

Val: 02:43

I tutor ASL 1, and I tutor audio 1 and audio 2. 

Babette Faehmel: 02:47

Okay. All right. Okay, Amira, I think you're going to get us started with the first question, right?

Amira Stevens-Salih: 02:51

Yeah. So, Ms. Richardson, you're the Interim Chief Diversity Officer and you've chosen the theme for the semester The Moves That Matter. Could you explain or talk a little bit about what you mean by that and what it means?

Alicia Richardson: 03:07

Sure. I think a lot of times, particularly when it relates to DEI—diversity and inclusion—it's easy to go negative, and I decided to choose this theme because I wanted to focus on the positive. I wanted to focus on the moves that really move us forward, that matter, that are supportive, that help students feel seen and heard and that foster senses of belonging for everyone on campus. I wanted to hear, and I want to hear about students' experiences in the classroom that made them feel confident and validated and just the good things. And I particularly wanted to focus first on student voices because I think that will resonate most with faculty. I think a lot of times we say, ‘yeah, this student told me once that this helped them a lot.’ You know what I mean? And it's sort of secondhand, and I wanted to be able to say, ‘have you listened to the podcast episode?’ Right? Where the student says exactly what, you know, made them—what reaffirmed your sense of humanity in the classroom. And made you feel like you were going to be successful. Just as you came in and happened to be in that space. So, that's where it came from.

Amira Stevens-Salih: 04:22

Well, that's awesome because I think that's really important for students, ‘cause, yes, the knowledge part is important but also like building up—for me, anyways—it's been building up like self-confidence and stuff like that. And your professors do help you a lot with that.

Alicia Richardson: 04:37

I think we all have like those stories, right? Those moments we remember this teacher did this one thing, and all of a sudden, I realized I was supposed to be here. You know what I mean? I'm supposed to be in the space. And I'm gonna be fine, and I'm gonna get through. And not just intellectually but as a full human being. I—you know, you felt seen. We all have those stories, so I just wanted to know more about yours, and what, you know, what that looks like and sounds like.

Amira Stevens-Salih: 04:57

Well, my first moment, I think, in college—well, in school in general—was the... I'm thinking of the word. That first discussion that we had, and you guys pushed me to be the moderator.

Babette Faehmel: 05:18

Oh, yeah. At a student event?

Amira Stevens-Salih: 05:20

Yeah, and I was like really scared, but you guys, like, helped me and reassured me, and then after that I think I had a lot of confidence. 

Babette Faehmel: 05:27

Oh yeah, that was for the criminal justice club, right?

Amira Stevens-Salih: 05:30

Yeah.

Babette Faehmel: 05:31

Yeah, we had a panel, and then we needed a student moderator.

Amira Stevens-Salih: 05:33

Yeah.

Babette Faehmel: 05:34

And you were kind of elbowed into that. 

Amira Stevens-Salih: 05:36

Yes.

Babette Faehmel: 05:37

Kicking and screaming.

Amira Stevens-Salih: 05:38

Yeah. Right. 

Babette Faehmel: 05:39

You were amazing.

Amira Stevens-Salih: 05:40

Thank you.

Babette Faehmel: 05:41

Okay. Why was that important?

Amira Stevens-Salih: 05:42

I think probably because I really did not see myself doing that ever. I don't think I had the confidence to do it. I wouldn't have done it on my own, but you know, the strong arm really helped me.

Babette Faehmel: 05:58

So, you liked being pushed out of your comfort zone.

Amira Stevens-Salih: 06:01

Yeah, that's like a big thing, I think in school, especially.

Babette Faehmel: 06:06

Arthur.

Arthur Echevarria: 06:08

So, so many points and so many things are running through my mind. A lot of words are just—comfort zone. There was one professor in mind—I'm not going to name names—but said the first thing to do as a student is to get out of your comfort zone. And I got pushed into somewhat of a competition setting, which I was totally—you want to talk about a wet cat type of syndrome? Shaking. Like, my professor, different professors, like, ‘oh yeah, by the way, you're competing tomorrow.’ So, I have to cook. First semester, cook in front of an audience. And luckily it was at a job fair, and my job was to the left of me—the job that I worked at the time. So, not only is the audience there, but my knucklehead coworkers are like, ‘oh, you're going to do great.’ And so, the pressure was on there, but to get me out of my comfort zone took me even further and further, just to keep getting out of my comfort zone. And just trying to do things that I would never 120% do. When I first came into college, the same professor said, ‘when you're trying to get from point A to point B, everyone's just trying to get to that B—whether it be the degree or the job or whatever it is—but you might make left turns and right turns and go in so many different directions.’ And that B for me is so far in the distance because I've made so many left and right turns. It looks like the subway, the New York city subway system, I don't know which one. But I'm still successful as I do these things. You know, it's not like it's—they're unsuccessful. Not that being unsuccessful would, for me personally would be a failure, because I learn the best from when I do fail or when something happens. That's my own way of learning.

Babette Faehmel: 07:58

Yeah.

Arthur Echevarria: 07:59

But to get to that point. But the comfort zone thing from a college standpoint, everyone especially—. I'm a non-matriculated student; I'm a little bit older—I'm not going to give my age up. But when you come out of high school and things of that nature, get out of your comfort zone and as much as you can. Don't just do the same old thing—routine—that you do because, when you get out of that comfort zone, I've only gotten great results from that.

Babette Faehmel: 08:26

Yeah, yeah... All right, who's next?

Sara Nava: 08:31

I have a story when—.  Well, Jenny and I went to the same high school and that's where we met. And so, that high school is in a very small town in New York. Very, very small. Very, very conservative. It was very difficult to be in that school especially as an immigrant. Like, I was the only one until other people came, but then still we were like a group of seven in the whole school. Like, the school literally did not even have a demographic because it was just not diverse. Like, you looked it up and there was not, like no, there was no chart, because everybody was just White. So, I was just like, ‘okay.’ Anyways, as, like, when I got to my senior year of high school, this teacher called Lisa Barbarino came into the school, and she was the ELL teacher. Because before I came and before other—. 

09:32

The reason why this the high school opened up an ELL class—because they didn't have one to start with—was because three siblings, like three sisters from Puerto Rico came. And so, they... then they didn't speak English, so they were forced to open something up for them. And so, they first hired this teacher, but it was very complicated. Like, they didn't really have a good relationship. It wasn't really working out. So, then that teacher left, and then they put Miss B— we called her Miss B—in her place. And well, I stopped being part of ELL in, like, I think seventh grade they stopped putting me in ELL classes. So, by the time I got to high school and she was there, I wasn't part of her class but, like, I was friends with the girls, so I would go a lot. And so, she met me, and I ended up like helping out a lot with translations and stuff. And basically she introduced me to PR/HYLI, which is the Puerto Rican Hispanic Youth Leadership Institute of the Capital Region—I think that's the full name. 

10:36

And she told me about it. She told me that I could get mySeal of Biliteracy. I didn't know that that existed because I wasn't aware of like many things of—in, like, the United States system. Like, I didn't know what AP classes were. I didn't know what UHS classes were. I didn't know that you had to pay for them. Like, I had no idea. And like, literally calling out that high school, but my counselor was so bad. She did not do her job. She did not tell me that all of these things existed, and I was just like—. I literally lost my UHS credit. I took the, like, the high school class, but she didn't tell me that I had to register for the exam. So, by the time that, like, I had to take the exam, I wasn't registered. So, I lost that like that college credit. Anyways. She told me—Miss B tells me that there's this program, and I applied for it.

11:35

But at the same time as I was part of that program, I was also working towards my Biliteracy Seal. Because, like, for you to get the biliteracy seal, you need to have a project where you speak, like, your first language but also your second language. And—or you could have one for your first and your second. But that specific, like, being part of that program allowed me to do it in both. And so, I kind of did that. And so, the program is just—it was like a mock assembly. And so, they gave you, like, a representative for you to act like—or, like, that's who you represented. And so, we talked about a lot of laws that pertain to the immigration—to immigrants. And, yeah, after I was done with that I did a panel thing. Like she—Miss B—gathered teachers and the principal and my counselor. And I had to speak in Spanish in front of them and I had to speak in English in front of them just to prove that I speak both languages. And then I got my Biliteracy Seal and, like, it was really cool for me.

Babette Faehmel: 12:49

Wow. That's definitely outside of your comfort zone. But you—also you had a teacher who really saw you as, like, the whole you, right?

Sara Nava: 12:56

Right. 

Babette Faehmel: 12:57

Like, with your interest with, like—maybe also picked up on the fact that maybe you are not represented among the broader high school population. (Sara agrees.) That's awesome. And then also connections with the community. I think, Arthur, you had that too with the competition, right? The cooking competitively? That's awesome. Jenny, do you want to add to what we've been talking about so far?

Jennifer Diaz-Diego: 13:24

Yeah. So, going off of the coming from the same high school and it being very, very small. I came in my sophomore year. Everyone knew my name because I was, I think, the third or second brown person in the school. And that was really hard for me just to not see anyone who looked like myself in the school that I went to. And I was kind of used to it because I grew up in South Dakota. I grew up in a red state and... You know, it's not much diversity. And I think the point that I just keep seeing, and it's a sad realization for myself, is that each time I go up a level—not necessarily in any way else besides academically, going up in higher education—I see less and less people who look like myself (Agreement), unless they’re custodial staff.

Babette Faehmel: 14:20

Oh my god.

Jennifer Diaz-Diego: 14:20

And it's a very sad realization for myself because it has a very—when I speak about it too much it actually makes me sad because my mom only got to the third-grade education. So, a lot of me coming here and moving up is a very just big accomplishment. Graduating high school was just a big thing for me and I don't think anyone saw that until I moved out and until I came over here. And a lot of the professors and the staff were seeing leadership opportunities for me and telling me that they believed in me. I never would have thought that I would have been running the SG meetings. It's still a very scary thing for myself. I am a nervous person, and I struggle to advocate for myself. But I can say that, one, for Alicia, I really am grateful to have you here and advocating for a lot of the students like myself. Ben was actually—Ben DeAngelis—he suggested that I should continue in SGA, as well as Mary.

Babette Faehmel: 15:33

Silvestri.  

Jennifer Diaz-Diego: 15:34

Yes. And that is why I'm to the point where I am now. 

Babette Faehmel: 15:38

That's awesome.

Jennifer Diaz-Diego: 15:39

But it's still a very hard journey.

Babette Faehmel: 15:41

Will that matter to you when you are looking at a transfer institution? Will you be checking the student demographics so to feel less like a unicorn in there?

Jennifer Diaz-Diego: 15:51

Um... (Laughs.) Yes. Yes.

Babette Faehmel: 15:54

Yeah, good. Okay, alright. Well, Val.

Val: 15:58

I mean, I guess, running along the line of staff here specifically pushing for me to do things. I started here in 2019, I've been here for a little while. But through all my years I've had a lot of staff—. I've always been like a very quiet, non-intrusive person. I feel like I take up too much space, I'm too loud, so I tend to be very quiet. I try to avoid making too much noise. I've had a lot of staff since I started here push me to be louder as a person. I had Ben, and Mary as well, both suggest—as well as, I think, Sherman... I think he had also suggested to me—all three of them pushed for me to run for SGA, and I wouldn't have thought about it otherwise. I had—. When I first started here I—the only club I was in was Pride Club. 

16:58

And the second semester I was here, all of the—like the president, vice president, all of them—they graduated. And I had made the decision, with some pushing, to run for—I think it was secretary. And I had Eric, who was the advisor at the time, push for me to run for president, and there was no competition. But I didn't think at the time that I could be president, that I could run a club. With Drama Club, I kind of just fell into the role because all of those people graduated as well, and there were really only two of us. But I didn't think that I could help run that club either. And a lot of the staff here have pushed for me to accept leadership roles and be loud. Alicia has. Jacquie has. You have. This is the second time I've been on the podcast because of you. And I found that a lot of the faculty and staff are very supportive about people being loud and themselves and participating, which wasn't something I experienced as much in high school.

Babette Faehmel: 18:15 

Loud in all the best ways. So far, I think we have a lot of—I mean, first of all, I'm really glad that there is such great staff who pushes students to be loud and make their voice heard and find leadership opportunities for them. A lot of the stuff that we've been talking about so far seems to be co-curricular and extracurricular. What about in the classroom? What is important? What is an important move or approach in the classroom?

Jennifer Diaz-Diego: 18:53

I actually have a little bit of a story for that.

Babette Faehmel: 18:56

Okay. Jenny.

Jennifer Diaz-Diego: 18:57

So, going on with the whole, it's hard to keep going up. I was terrified to take Organic Chem. But actually about the second or third week in my professor—Luca Fontana, bless that man. He asks a question to the classroom and genuinely looks at each student in the eye to make sure they are understanding. And I try to hide my emotions, and I think it's pretty difficult to see because my—I usually mouth it with my mouth, and the mask is there. But he looked at me and I just looked at him back and I guess I look like a scared, I don't know, deer in the headlights type thing. And he came up to me and just showed me the 3D model of whatever he was speaking about that day, I don't remember. And made sure I understood it in front of the class, just stopped the class, and he'll do that for any other student. It's really uncomfortable in the moment, but then you leave the class feeling like, ‘wow, that wasn't so bad. I actually understood that.’ So, now I feel better about that class. But I really do appreciate his approach.

Alicia Richardson: 20:02

What I hear in that is you weren't shamed.

Babette Faehmel: 20:06

Yeah.

Jennifer Diaz-Diego: 20:07

Exactly.

Alicia Richardson: 20:08

There was attention paid. There's a difference.

Jennifer Diaz-Diego: 20:09

Exactly. Not calling out.

Alicia Richardson: 20:11

Exactly. He was calling you in, really.

Jennifer Diaz-Diego: 20:13

Yeah, exactly.

Alicia Richardson: 20:14

And that powerful, that stop, that look you in the eye, you're a human being—you know what I mean?—I'm helping to get someplace...

Jennifer Diaz-Diego: 20:23

Yeah.

Alicia Richardson: 20:24

...and when you leave here, you're gonna get this. That's powerful. Powerful.

Arthur Echevarria: 20:28

I think that—and we all experience this—that when you're in a classroom setting and it's always homework and tests and, you know, deadlines and pressure—did I say pressure?—you don't feel, and I know I didn't feel this way, you don't feel like you're learning at certain points. You just feel like I'm doing this and I'm doing this. And there's something that you said earlier that, like, after being out of class and being extracted from college and now I'm at work and I'm doing whatever the task is that I'm doing, I might reference in my brain something that I learned from that actual classroom. But at the time when you're actually learning it you're like, ‘never going to use this again in my life,’ but then you will apply it eventually. And, like I said, we're all in that pressure point right now. And I'm taking a tutor for a class right now and she said, ‘when you're done with this and you look back at it, it's going to make sense.’ And I was like, ‘but I need to know it now. Later on, it's not going to help me, okay? I need the good grade in this class now, okay? December 31st is going to help me on October 1st tomorrow.’ So, that pressure I think for us as students that pressure is like deadlines this, that, juggling everything else we have to juggle. When we're done and we look back at it, we're like, ‘alright, it wasn't that hard. Let's go for a master's now.’

Babette Faehmel: 22:01

Do you sometimes wish there was more like a different pace or more exploration time in the classroom?

Arthur Echevarria: 22:09

Okay, so let me break that down for you. When I was in school, I was in a thing called Resource Room, which would be the—I can get ADA accommodations. I never email my professors. You know why? Because they're going to give me extra time. You know what I'm going to do with that time? I'm going to procrastinate more. So, there's no need. I don't need extra time. I need that heel on my neck. ‘Oh, I got to hand this in.” And we've all been there. We've all been there where the deadline is 12 o'clock, and you maybe forgot about it or you know you got a flat tire or whatever. Life came. And you're handing something in at 11:58. And, you know, you—I don't want to curse—but you half you-know-what it. But you handed it in, and it was there. But it wasn't 100%. It was 50, 20, whatever it is. But you just had to make that deadline, or maybe you didn't make that deadline. But for that aspect of it, I don't want more time. I don't want more time.

Alicia Richardson: 23:13

Let me ask you though. So, that's a really good scenario to consider, right? Like so, you are, you know—flat tire. This thing is not getting in at 11:59, right? It's not happening, right? What has been the best response to that—right?—that you have received that made you feel, ‘okay, wait a minute. It's not the end of the world, and I can do this.’ What has been the best response to that need, right? Because some—you know, I can hold a deadline, right? But I'm also going to listen to my student when they say I had an emergency. What has been the best response to that that you have experienced?

Arthur Echevarria: 23:50

From a teacher, you mean? From...

Alicia Richardson: 23:52

Yeah.

Arthur Echevarria: 23:53

I mean, I don't know if you can hear it in my voice, but I'm very outspoken and I'm a very blunt person. So, even if the teacher will not accept my homework, I'll still email it to you. Like, you're getting it, you know I mean? At least—and at least, maybe you won't give me credit for that, but you're gonna say that I'm trying. Number one. Number one. I'm gonna cover my own butt, so to say. But most of the time, teachers know. And from day one that I stepped foot on the SCCC campus, teachers will tell you, ‘life happens, things happen.’ But if every week, you're getting a flat tire? Come on, you only have four tires on that car. If you replace four of them, you should be good for a couple months. Or take a—do we have driving classes? Take a driving class at SCCC then. Something along those lines. But yeah, most of the teachers do respond, like I said, if it happens one time or two times. And I'm going through that this week. I had a discussion last week—or a class. Every week we had one discussion; last week we had two. So, I always respond to everyone's discussion, but I—in my brain is programmed that this class I have two discussions, this class I have one, so I didn't do the responses to one. So, the teacher said, ‘listen, you've been doing good in this class. If you keep do—if you do this week is the same rigor as you do every other week. I'll just, you know, I'll let that one slide, like you did it.’ So, it's not—it's never, like, butting heads, and it's just like, ‘you need to get this in, because I'm, you know, the dictator here.’ That—they always try to work with you, which is good. 

Alicia Richardson: 25:26

Anyone else?

Arthur Echevarria: 25:27

My procrastinating...

Alicia Richardson: 25:28

Yeah, yeah. I'm with you... (Crosstalk)

Arthur Echevarria: 25:30

Nobody else procrastinates in this room... (Laughter and crosstalk.)

Babette Faehmel: 25:34

There are just some people who know how to manage it, how to trick themselves, and then some who don't. I procrastinate.

Amira Stevens-Salih: 25:41

I do too. 

Arthur Echevarria: 25:42

I think it's a human nature.

Babette Faehmel: 25:44

I totally agree.

Arthur Echevarria: 25:45

It might be. 

Alicia Richardson: 25:47

Do you prefer to have it very clearly written in the syllabus, that if you do not hand it in on time, this is what's going to happen? Is that a better approach than just sort of like, ‘yeah, we'll see what happens?’ Yeah, I mean when it happens? What is the thing that you're like, ‘I appreciate that. That is where I'm gonna hold myself accountable. Thank you for letting me know what's gonna happen.’ What works, in that sense, better?

Sara Nava: 26:15

I'm sorry. You can go.

Val: 26:16

I think one of the things that I found super helpful when it comes to just being informed of deadlines is I have had teachers who will post that these deadlines are going to happen in the syllabus instead of me having to keep track of it as they post it throughout the semester. And then I can have that already set in my calendar. I can know this assignment's going to happen, or this test or this quiz, and I don't have to worry about going into Brightspace and checking to double check and triple check that I haven't missed something. Because I have the tendency to read something and I'll miss an entire line and I'll read it again, and then it's a different line that I've missed. So, it'll take three or four tries for me to make sure that I've gotten all of the information from something. And when I get the syllabus for a class, I'll keep it in my notes. I have a set note section in my notes app that I keep the syllabus. I list all of my assignments. I keep all my notes in there. So, having the syllabus there and I can reference it at any time when I'm working on something and knowing that these deadlines the important ones are already there for me to reference and I'm not going to have to go to a different website or make sure that I'm reading something correctly and I'm not going to miss it is really helpful.

Babette Faehmel: 27:44

Yeah, yeah. So, you want it in the syllabus from the beginning? You want to know what's happening when, but also occasional reminders?

Val: 27:53

The important dates, at least. If you have unit tests that you know you're going to be doing after this amount of weeks then having a student informed that that is going to happen, no matter what—it's been helpful for me.

Sara Nava: 28:12

Well, adding to that, I personally really like charts. I prefer when teachers do their syllabus and charts or just, like, content—like a box or something rather than like a big paragraph. It's just easier to look at throughout the semester. I really like how Dr. Lacy does it. I'm taking, like, basically all of my maths with her at this point. And she just has like, I don't know, like her chart is just so nice. (Laughter.) It's just, like, all there. Like, from the moment you start the class to the moment you finish. Like, it's all the assignments with the due date, and that's it. Like, that's all you have to look up, basically. And then in her syllabus she'll just add, like, ‘you have like one like penalty day, like, one extra day for one homework,’ and, like, that's it. But, like, the course schedules, like, charts are great.

Val: 29:04

Yeah or if our teachers do like a bullet list.

Sara Nava: 29:06

Yeah.

Alicia Richardson: 29:07

As well?

Sara Nava: 29:08

Yeah, exactly. That's it. Just, like, make it clear and, like, one sentence, like, what it is.

Babette Faehmel: 29:12

Yeah.

Sara Nava: 29:13

Like, when it's due, like, that's it.

Alicia Richardson: 29:16

I laugh because you would think, like, that's the simplest thing in the world, you know what I mean? Like, just, like, make sure it's very clear and organized (Agreement), you know? But yeah, it's a simple thing.

Arthur Echevarria: 29:27

You know, going back to what I said about being out of school now, and you're learning certain things. I think that this is just a skill that we're also learning. It is not only an organization skill, that we don't have to be organized, but that we have to work. And when you, when you get into the work field, not everyone's going to be—. What was the teacher's name? 

Sara Nava: 29:48

Dr. Lacey.

Arthur Echevarria: 29:49

Not everyone's going to be Dr. Lacey: not everyone's going to give you charts. So, when you go into the real world and you're out there working, you know, Dr. Lacey—or someone you work with—might always give you charts, and the next person might give you this and might give you this. So, that's teaching you the skill of being able to work with other professors who—the diversity of the way that they teach is different. I think most teachers spell it out in somewhat of a way. I mean I had a teacher that emailed you and—I mean, like, I thought she was my grandma, the way she was. If you fail this lady's class, you must live under a rock. But in college you shouldn't be spoon-fed that type of stuff because you do also have to learn—like, I didn't get to go to college at a young age because I went right to work. But you've got to learn how to grow up and be an adult and be able to organize these things and, like I said earlier, juggle more than one thing in your life. But there are certain gray areas that I've seen too on a syllabus. And then those deadlines do come up, and you're like I didn't know there was an exam or...

Alicia Richardson: 30:57

I think, in a way, what you're pointing to Sara is that you learn something about what works best for you. Really, it's not even really about what the teacher did, but you're saying, ‘okay, this might work best for me.’ And then if there's a teacher who doesn't do it like that, then she knows that if she, if it's not working that, she might convert it to a chart for herself, right? So, being exposed to those different things I think allows for that. But I, you know, I also think that when we know what moves matter and we know what we can do to be as supportive and help students be as successful as possible, that we should at least try. (Laughter.) Like, I'm not saying—you know what I mean? —let's break it down to the molecular level. That's not what I'm saying. But if I know that this is going to support my student's ability to be successful and to clearly understand what I'm asking them to do. Then I'm going to try my best to do that. (Agreement.)

Babette Faehmel: 31:47

We need to know and that's why these conversations are so important. I mean, I get overwhelmed when I see a chart. Like, I need everything written out. Just, like, give me a paragraph. But I cannot assume that all my students have the same approach. So, you have to kind of, I don't know, like, make sure you hit them from different sides with the information.

Sara Nava: 32:08

I also feel like examples are very helpful. For our physics class. Like, we have to write formal lab reports sometimes and he posted, like, what he would write it, like, what he would do, and, like, that is super helpful. Like, to have something to follow so you can, like, mimic it. It's like a template. It's really nice as well.

Babette Faehmel: 32:31

Modeling, yeah. 

Val: 32:33

Yeah. I've had teachers do that too, for—like, we had to do concert write-ups for one of our classes, and the examples for that were just really helpful. Or even just like a template for something they would like, like if they want us to name the concert, when was it, where was it?

Sara Nava: 32:46

Exactly.

Val: 32:47

Stuff like that.

Alicia Richardson: 32:49

I always get worried when I do that in the classroom because I think it's an important part of learning. But I always get worried. I'm like, ‘oh my god, they're just gonna copy this and just do exactly as I'm gonna.’ And then I'm shocked when they just go and they just—. Something about having the template and knowing that they're—you know what I mean? —that these are really the things that I'm looking for. They just blossomed, right? They didn't stick specifically to, you know, the topic matter that was presented. They knew what I was looking for, and so they knew that they could go above and beyond without going outside of the parameters that, you know what I mean, that sort of were set. So, I think, in a very odd way, templates can be freeing. (Agreement.)

Amira: 33:29

I think it's like a good starting point for someone or it, like, makes it less overwhelming. But whatever assignment it is. 

Val: 33:36

I know that for me, without a template, a lot of the time I'm so scared I'm gonna do something (Agreement) that I overthink it and I don't get it done.

Arthur Echevarria: 33:43

That's such a good one. I mean that's like—. I mean, I honestly I've handed in things that I thought like, ‘oh, I did this wrong.’ But I handed it in. And I didn't do it wrong. I just I get it in my own head, the same way you do. Especially when it's not spelled out for you. It doesn't say, you know, ‘do this and then do this and do this.’ But if you put pen to paper—sometimes I even have to do that. I have to put pen to paper. I can't even type it. I have to write it out and then edit from here to there and it works. But don't think that it's wrong, because even, like, I said for me, I learned the best from my failure. So, if I was to hand that in, it'd be like all right, I did it wrong. But then that's what we're here for. We're here to learn, and even if you hand it in, I’d rather take a 20 than a zero, you know I mean, if you’re totally wrong.

Babette Faehmel: 34:22

Yeah. Exactly.

Arthur Echevarria: 34:33

I'll take a 20 over zero any day of the week, you know.

Val: 34:36

It's also that I found that if I feel like I don't know what I'm doing, and then I also don't turn in the assignment, the teacher doesn't know that I don't know. (Agreement.) The teacher thinks I'm just not doing it.

Alicia Richardson: 34:47

Exactly.

Babette Faehmel: 34:48

I mean, sometimes we're really not particularly flexible and, like—. I still remember it was, like 10 years ago, my first student who handed in a history assignment in the form of a story, which was not at all what I asked for. But I'm like, ‘oh, wow, yes, of course you can tell this narrative in a in the form of a story.’ So, she still got credit, and I mean, to my regret, I think I didn't give her an A because it was not in the form in which I expected it. But sometimes, like, sparking creativity and like in different ways, and you still get the outcomes, like you still get the thinking that you are expecting, just not in this, like, five paragraph essay format.

Jennifer Diaz-Diego: 35:32

I also think templates are really nice in the form of practice exams (Agreement.) mainly because a lot of professors are very different in how they approach an exam you think there's going to be like 50 multiple choice. Turns out there's like three questions, five parts each, and I prepared for it thinking one way, and I'd go take it, and it's like, ‘oh, that felt awful.’

Babette Faehmel: 35:58

Yeah, that's a good advice.

Arthur Echevarria: 36:00

I had a conversation with a professor earlier today. What about changing the wording? Because we do homeworks in this class that I'm taking now, and then we do quizzes. And the quizzes I tell him today, I said, ‘these aren't quizzes, these are reinforced homeworks.’ He said, maybe I should start calling that.’ I said, ‘if you call it a reinforced homework, over calling it a quiz, I wouldn't freak out.’ (Agreement.) I have a quiz coming up this week and he's like, ‘you have this,’ he's like, ‘you know what you're doing.’ I was like, ‘but you wrote quiz.’ If it said reinforced homework, I'm like, ‘it's just another homework.’ It wouldn't bother me. It takes that same thing I said earlier—that pressure, that deadline—that pressure off you.

Babette Faehmel: 36:39

I like that.

Arthur Echevarria: 36:41

I'm about to crack here. (Laughter.)

Alicia Richardson: 36:43

I've done that before. I did that in an Integrated Reading and Writing course. I used to teach Integrated Reading and Writing 1. And we would give, like, an initial assessment at the beginning of the semester. And we called it an initial assessment. Stupid, right? And it's literally just like freeze. Like, just freeze, right? Because what is that? And then we just started calling it a reading assignment and it changed, right? It took that off.

Arthur Echevarria: 37:10

It takes that little...

Alicia Richardson: 37:11

It's just that little move. You see what I'm saying?

Arthur Echevarria: 37:13

Semantics!

Alicia Richardson: 37:15

And it just changed the feeling of it? It didn't—it wasn't something that counted against them. It didn't hurt their grade, but it didn't matter, it was called an initial assessment. It was scary, you know what I mean? And so, just changing that offered them the opportunity to be completely vulnerable... (Agreement) to being, to doing something wrong, you know what I mean? It's a simple thing. 

Amira Stevens-Salih: 37:40

Yeah. Because I think the anxiety of it and all will change the outcome. Even if, like, you know, the material and stuff, just the wording of what it is like, you might do worse than you would if you were more calm about it and weren't thinking of it so serious and stuff.

Alicia Richardson: 37:56

But what about—what about the person who says, ‘well, you know, maybe a little anxiety is good, I'm not changing,’ you know what I mean? ‘It's a test! Deal with it!’ How do you respond to, sort of, that pushback on, you know, making the changes?

Amira Stevens-Salih: 38:12

I think you just have to deal with it. I mean, I don't know, I personally take deep breaths.(Laughs.) Just, you know, mentally prepare yourself for stuff like that. Cause, you know, it is going to be like that in life in general. Like, people aren't going to be willing to be flexible with you, or they aren't going to be willing to change things for you. So, I think it's about knowing yourself and yourself as a person—a student or a worker—whatever you're doing and knowing what's going to help you get through stuff like that.

Val: 38:42

I think in part it's also questioning why they have that mindset. (Agreement.) Because I know for me a lot of time the pressure that comes from a deadline is what gets me to do it. And I don't have the mindset that everyone should be like that, but I know that there's definitely people who have not had experiences outside of their worldview or have not had the opportunity to look outside of their own worldview and understand that not everyone is going to work like that. Because maybe they have only had interactions or conversations about that with people who have the same mindset as them. So, looking at why they think that way and then taking that as a way to try and explain to them the difference in mindset and worldview and how people interact with things can also help them be more flexible or at least create an understanding.

Babette Faehmel: 39:36

I mean, there are educational systems where everything hinges on your performance on one big test. I mean that just seems, like, absolutely horrible to me.

Val: 39:46

Common core. 

Babette Faehmel: 39:47

Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. That's a good point. 

Arthur Echevarria: 39:52

We all have bad days. If you have a bad day on that test, you might know that stuff through and through.

Babette Faehmel: 39:56

Right! Exactly. And that doesn't actually tell anything about your learning, just about you on that day. (Agreement.)

Val: 40:03

Even outside of a bad day, there are just people who don't do well on standardized tests. (Agreement.) And it's not an accurate assessment of their understanding of the subject or their intelligence. (Agreement.)

Alicia Richardson: 40:16

That’s correct!

Arthur Echevarria: 40:17

Going back to what the professor is saying, it's a test and that's it across the board. My background—like my ethnic background—is Puerto Rican-Italian, so I'm hard-headed over hard-headed. (Laughter.) So, my initial response would be something that would be inappropriate, and I try to do it... (Laughter.)

Alicia Richardson: 40:34

Take deep breaths!

Arthur Echevarria: 40:35

I'm trying to do—I'm doing the deep breaths. The woosah, woosah, if anyone knows that reference. And then I would want to prove that teacher wrong. So, I would want to take it on the eye. And then I'm like, ‘all right, I'm going to study for this test. And I'm going to get a great grade and show them that, you know—.’ And that's something that I've learned in my older age. Because when I was young, I would just stick it to that teacher and tell them where, you know, where to go, and then I walk away from it, and I'm like, ‘that wasn't the right, you know’—I almost feel guilty. I mean, I feel like, you know, guilty, with my head down like, ‘I shouldn't have done that and still try to get that 100 on that test.’

Val: 41:17

Tests are also—. I've found that tests come with more anxiety for me when the teacher doesn't prepare you. (Agreement.) So, I've had teachers who will give you practice tests, who will go over everything that's going to be on the test over and over and over again in the classes leading up to it. And then I feel prepared because I've had that teacher tell me what's going to be on the test. I've had that teacher tell me how they would like me to answer the questions. I've had that teacher give me practice tests. So, I know what I'm getting ready for. And because they've prepared me that way, the anxiety—I have anxiety disorders. So, I'm still anxious about it, but it's a different kind of anxiety, where I know that my anxiety is coming from my head, as opposed to a real deficiency in my knowledge.

Alicia Richardson: 42:06

Yeah. No, there's a real—. I mean, I think that's really important to acknowledge. There are really some—. The basis of higher education is built upon, you know, this concept of barrier, jump, barrier, jump, barrier, jump. And so, there's a group of people who are like, ‘yeah, that's right, jump over those barriers, that's how you're going to get your degree and that's how you're going to be a better person, you're going to develop that grit.’ And there's another group of us, I think, who were thinking, ‘okay, so why is that barrier there? What purpose does it serve?’ Right? ‘And who and who does it privilege?’ Right? And if you start to think that way, then you start to think, ‘wait a minute.’ And it's very simple, right? Because there are some people like, ‘no, I want to trip them up on that test. I'm not going to prepare them.’ Right? I'm speaking about my own people. But it's true, I have those teachers, right? ‘I'm not, no—study, get prepared, do it on your own.’ But then I think there are people who rethink the whole structure and consider how the goal is to help you gain knowledge, not to help you develop skills to jump a barrier yeah, right? And so, it's about...

Arthur Echevarria: 43:09

I run through barriers.

Alicia Richardson: 43:12

Thank you... But I think if you think about it like that, then it puts those moves into context. Those are teachers, those, I think, are people who are rethinking, ‘wait, why am I trying to make this sound and be just like what I experienced, instead of thinking about who I have in front of me and what they need to ultimately be successful and to gain knowledge?’

Val: 43:35

I think it's also recognition that something will be a barrier for someone. Because something can be a barrier for me and not be a barrier for Jenny. Or it could be a barrier for Sara and Alicia, and not be one for Babette, right? So, recognizing that someone in your class, someone that you know is going to have to deal with this might have trouble with this, that other people might not, and then addressing it. (Agreement.)

Arthur Echevarria: 44:04

So, some—. All right, so, not everyone has the same barriers. I totally understand that, and I love that. But how far should the professor be able to go to make every student—or even if it was just a group of students—successful, if it was to bend rules or, I don't know, maybe rattle the cage, so to say? Aren't we here, like you said, for higher education and to help every student be successful?

Alicia Richardson: 44:34

Yeah. Right, but being successful—. I mean, we're supposed to be an educational institution. You're supposed to leave here knowing more than you knew before, right? My goal isn't to make this as difficult as possible so that you gain grit. When I know, clearly, that you have overcome things that have helped you to build that grit to begin with. I mean, the assumption is that, you know, students don't have it. They have it. They came here with it, right? So, why am I, you know, reinforcing this idea that I've got to get them, you know, bigger and stronger and Hulk-like with grit?

Arthur Echevarria: 45:14

I'm already leaving here with six flat tires. (Laughter.)

Alicia Richardson: 45:18

I just—I hear you though. Where does it end? I think that's actually a really good question for everyone. Where does it stop?

Val: 45:26

I think that recognizing barriers and helping students achieve success despite those barriers or getting rid of the barriers does not mean that you have to handhold them, or you have to bend rules. I think that even just—. I'm the one that set up the studio today for the podcast. And Sten Isachsen, who is the resident audio teacher here, was in his office. And he—. Every time I went in for a question, ‘how should I set up the mic stands? How am I finding the template for pro tools? Am I using the right mics? Is this okay?’ He never once showed irritation or frustration or made it a problem for me to come in repeatedly while he was doing other work and ask a question about what I was doing. He made it very clear just in his body language and his reactions that asking questions from the person who knows better than me is okay. And that I should do that, and I should be able to do that. And I think that that in teachers, especially where I know I can ask a question and I'm not going to meet ridicule or frustration or something that's going to make me feel bad about it, that's something that helps me jump a barrier. (Agreement.)

Babette Faehmel: 46:40

That's awesome.

Arthur Echevarria: 46:43

Do—and I totally don't do this, I don't care, I'll be out there and make a huge you-know-what of myself—but I see the ridicule you talk about. I'm mostly online, but I know in classes, and I've had people come up to me in the middle of—the end of class, I'm sorry, not the middle of class—and say, you know, ‘I want to ask that same question, but I thought it was stupid.’ What is that? I don't have—like I said, I'm very outspoken, I don't have that pressure. I'll ask the dumb thing. ‘The color be red.’ I'll be like, ‘is that red? Are you sure? (Laughter.) It looks maroon.’ But why is it that students—and it's not younger or anything—why is everyone so scared to ask a question about, you know—? And have that fear, that anxiety—. I know everyone has it because I've even asked a question to have like, ‘man, this is going to be ... they're all going to laugh at me.’ But I don't care, because maybe it helped me or someone else. Why do we all have that fear?  

Alicia Richardson: 47:38

It's a really good question.

Arthur Echevarria: 47:39

How do we break that?

Alicia Richardson: 47:40

It's a really good question.

Babette Faehmel: 47:41

Exactly. And I think a lot of it has to do with what Alicia was saying about how education is set up as barrier, jump over it or perish, right?

Val: 47:52

I think for me; it's something that starts in elementary school. (Agreement.) Because it's set up in a way that either this works for you or you're stupid. (Agreement.) And especially as someone who...

Arthur Echevarria: 48:06

(Unintelligible) if all are stupid? (Laughter.)

Alicia Richardson: 48:08

(Laughs.) Stop it.

Val: 48:09

...And especially for me as someone who has ADHD and needed a 509 all through middle school, high school, someone who couldn't quite process things, who had to be told that you're going to sit in the front of the class because if you don't then you're not going to process things—and even that didn't help me. Where I'm one of those people that's bad at standardized tests, and I've trained myself to understand how they work and to get good grades on them, but I'm still bad at them. I have anxiety disorders. I have ADHD. I can't focus well, and the ADHD accommodations are a separate room and more time. A separate room means that I have less for my wandering brain to focus on, so I'm having a harder time focusing on the test. Extra time means I feel like I don't have to be doing this at a consistent pace. And so those didn't help. And I can't hear super well, so I would find that even sitting in the front of the class, I would miss half of what the teacher was saying.

49:08

And it was an issue of you hit this point where everyone—the teachers, the system, even just the way the class is set up—is telling you that if you're not understanding it the way it is now, then you're just not going to understand it at all. And you're going to hit college, and you're going to get worse. And especially when it comes to, like, high school, where you're limited in when you can talk to your teachers and ask for extra explanations—I didn't email my teachers in high school because I didn't feel like that was an option. If I wanted to stay late, then I had to make sure that the teacher was going to be there. I had to make sure that I would be able to get home from there, or I wouldn't be able to get that extra help. My parents weren't able to help me because I would get home and I would show them something and they're like, ‘I didn't learn this,’ because they switched to the Common Core curriculum—which is very cookie cutter. Doesn't work for most people, I would argue. 

50:09

So, it's an issue of I've been told up until I started college—and my professors were a lot more flexible: I could see them more often. They were so much more encouraging of me because they had the option to—they had less rigid rules around them as they did in high school. Because I had a lot of very supportive teachers in high school, but they still had to work within the bounds of Common Core. I was told that, ‘you don't understand this, so you're stupid and gonna fail. And I—we're not gonna do anything about it, you're stuck like this. I don't care that you are someone with mental illness or that you can't understand it when it's explained that way. You gotta figure it out. And it's your job.’ 

Sara Nava: 50:51

I have a very—. I have a nice story that pertains to that. Like, teachers that think that if you don't get it and, like, you're over here, like, they push you aside. I, during my junior year of high school, I moved to Massachusetts for a short period of time. So, I went to a different high school. Then, when I came back to the same high school that Jenny and I went together, I was placed in Algebra 2. Just regular Algebra 2 class. But the way that Algebra 2 was taught in Massachusetts was, like, at a different pace than what the class at this high school was. So, when I came to the New York high school, they were more and more advanced than when I came, than when—yeah, by the time that I came. So, when I came to that class I was—they were at a different part of what I was learning. 

51:47

So, basically, my teacher told me that I needed to enroll in Algebra 2A—which is an algebra class that breaks into two parts, so you start seeing it your junior year and you finish it by your senior year—because he said that there was no time for him to prepare me to be ready for Regents. So, basically, like, I was—he was basically just telling me that I was just a burden, and I was a waste of his time. So, like, let me just go—like let's just take you to another teacher, because this is not my problem. And I was like, ‘okay.’ So, I have seen how that has affected me in my college career—especially trying to pursue STEM—because my algebra skills are so bad, and that has, like, been such a problem for me. Because I mean, first of all, I moved countries. So, I'm fifth grade, so like my basic math skills were like basically stopped for me because I didn't understand English.

52:47

So, it took me like one year to understand what was being said to me and then, on top of that, to understand math. So, I was like I didn't, I had no idea what was going on until like eighth grade. So, like all of those basic math skills, like, I don't have them. And then I go to high school, and then I have these teachers that, like, don't even want to explain to me anything and so by the time I came to college, I had to kind of learn on my own. And I tell Jenny all the time, like, I don't even know how I've made it this far. Like, I'm in Calculus , but I can't add fractions, like, I just don't know. So, like, I'm just here. 

(Crosstalk)

Babette Faehmel: 53:35

I don't think it's necessarily so much grit. But I what I hear is that, like, everybody here is different, but you all figured out what works for you. You figured out: this is how I learn. And then you kind of take charge. That you do try to, like, get exactly that from a professor or from peers, right? And that I think a lot of students, they just assume if they don't fit into that cookie cutter mold then it's their fault—and it's not. 

Val: 53:58

It's also that you're not taught how to study. (Agreement.) You're not, there's—you're shown your homework, and you have to figure it out yourself. And there's no kind of, like, guide for what you can try to see if that will work for you. And then there's also—I was considered a gifted kid as a child. And really what that meant was I have ADHD. Which also meant that when I was in school up to 10th grade, I didn't study at all. I didn't even try. Because what would happen was, I would mentally absorb information in class, and I would be able to just spew it back out. And to the teachers that meant that I was understanding it and doing it well. I wasn't. And that came to a head in 10th grade when I failed two classes because I didn't know what was going on, and I also didn't know how to help myself. And I have heard a lot of stories from people who had the same experience, where they were a gifted kid and they skipped a grade and they weren't taught how to teach themselves. And they weren't taught how to ask for help, because that also plays into it—you're a gifted kid, you're smart, you shouldn't need the help. (Agreement.)

Jennifer Diaz-Diego: 55:14

I think that goes back to the whole Common Core being just basically learning patterns. It's quite literally just learning patterns.

Val: 55:23

Common Core is shoving information down your throat. Regurgitate it for a test.

Jennifer Diaz-Diego: 55:26

Exactly.

Val: 55:27

You're not...

Arthur Echevarria: 55:28

Are we doing something different here? (Laughter.)

Alicia Richardson: 55:30

No, but I think it points you again, sometimes—you remember how I said at the beginning, like I wanted to maintain positivity. Cause sometimes you have to go there, you have to see the other side. Because I think what Jenny is pointing to is the fact that it doesn't really work if you are just recognizing patterns. That's not knowledge. That is not what you should be aspiring to for long-term academic success.

Arthur Echevarria: 56:00

Right. But as I said in the beginning too, that's what we're doing in this rat race that we're on. When we're done is when you're like, ‘oh wait, I did.’ You will. You don't think you're learning, you think you're regurgitating things and you're not really picking it up. But when everything is said and done—and I know this because after I was through college—that's when you're like, ‘you will pick these things up.’ You think that you're just doing this for today or for tomorrow. You're like, ‘oh, I'm never going to remember this again.’ But you do.

Alicia Richardson: 56:28

No, no. No, no, no. (Laughter.)

Arthur Echevarria: 56:30

Don't think I remember it all.

Alicia Richardson: 56:33

No, wait, no. Because—. Okay. So, I'm in my late 30s—I'm just telling you this right now, okay. What they're talking about for high school and these—and elementary school—is a very different beast. 

Arthur Echevarria: 56:44

Oh, I haven't...

Alicia Richardson: 56:45

Okay? What they're talking about is different. They're not talking about, you know, recognizing patterns in college, am I right? (Agreement.) That's not what they're talking about. They're talking about in elementary and high school, they were taught to recognize patterns. Which means there's a difference between understanding that two times three equals six, right? Knowing that, and then seeing two, two, two, counting up those things, and seeing six. There's a difference. You know how you got there, versus just memorizing, right? That's what they're talking about

Val: 57:15

Elementary, middle school, high school—for me and almost all of my friends—was us memorizing enough information for the test, regurgitating it, forgetting it all immediately. I remember almost nothing I learned in any of those grades. For that matter, I'm not even sure what subjects I took. Because so much of it was me memorizing information, cramming it down my throat the night before the test. Because the way they were teaching it wasn't conducive to learning for me. I couldn't remember it over the course of the unit. I had to, like, cram it in and regurgitate it for the test and then it all leave my brain. Because I wasn't learning, I was memorizing and then it was gone, because you can't keep all that information in there forever and it's not being taught to you in a way that means you understand why.

Babette Faehmel: 57:58

And then you go to college and then you're supposed to learn differently. (Agreement.) And that's—that makes you...

(Crosstalk.)

Yeah, exactly. And the other crazy thing is that we know that this is not how learning works. It's just—I mean, like, what is—? Why are we doing that? 

Alicia Richardson: 58:17

You know what, I disagree. It's not that that's not how learning works. It is—I'm and I'm about to get real controversial baby.

Arthur Echevarria: 58:24

Can't wait. 

Alicia Richardson: 58:25

But it's about how you teach certain people. (Agreement.) Certain people are taught to see just patterns. Certain people are taught to not really truly understand.

Babette Faehmel: 58:37

If you're only thinking about preparing a workforce.

Alicia Richardson: 58:40

Correct. You can maintain a workforce—right?—by changing the way their understanding of what educated really means, right? (Agreement.) So, that's—I think that's a whole other, you know, concept there. But I have a question. You want to piggyback off of that or...?

Arthur Echevarria: 58:55

I have a question—I want to piggyback off of that—but I have a question for the professor. You're a—you teach as well, right, here? 

Alicia Richardson: 59:02

Yeah, I used to teach.

Arthur Echevarria: 59:03

Okay. So, the thing for me is, you know, we're talking about learning and the way people learn, but we all know that everyone learns different. So, when you guys are putting together your curriculum, your syllabus, everything and—. Do you—and I'm starting to think about it in the back of my mind, Babette, but I think you—. I took a class with you, so I think we did do this. I know—. So, if one person's a visual learner, the other person learns from reading: do you guys set up your courses to have a little bit of each thing in there? And I think when we took your course, we did do discussions, but then there was—and you spoke earlier there was a story part that someone wrote for you earlier in your professional career—and you actually had us do that. You had us—we had to, like, be a certain person. And you gave us a whole scenario and we had to write, like, this fictional story, but it also had to have some type of based on historical backing to it. So, but when you set up your—that—my question is when you set things up, do you set it up for more than multiple... learning, the way people learn.

Alicia Richardson: 01:00:08

If you're doing your job, yes! Look, one of the wonderful things that I love that I'm learning about D2L is that I can attach a video of me saying ‘this is what I want you to do, and here's why, right?’ Instead of just posting the assignment. I think that bridge is such an amazing gap.

Val: 01:00:28

My math teacher actually has tutorials on every question that she links. If you're not understanding an aspect... (Crosstalk.)

Alicia Richardson: 01:00:35

There're so many times where you read something and you're like, ‘I think I got it,’ and then the teacher says, ‘oh, this is what,’ you know, ‘this is what...’ They add a little bit more to it and you're like, ‘alright, I got it.’ Right? Yes! And it doesn't mean that I am handholding, and it doesn't mean that I am, you know, being helpful to a particular group. It means that I'm trying to imagine all the ways in which my student can be successful, right? That's what I'm doing. 

Arthur Echevarria: 01:01:03

That's the number one thing as a professor, right? 

Babette Faehmel: 1:01:05

Well, we in college—I mean that's the thing for college professors we learn how to teach by teaching. (Agreement.) Which is—which can be really problematic. It's like the apprenticeship model, right? We don't have education backgrounds or anything like that. And—but you should. If you are a self-reflective and observant teacher, you should pick up on the fact that not everybody learns the same way.

Alicia Richardson: 01:01:32

There are so many things that I've done, like in the first three to five years of my college, and I'm like, hand over eyes. —can't believe I did that, right? But I had to say, ‘you know what, you learned something, right?’ You learned something about what works best. Just as I tell you, just as you learn from failure, I learn from failure too. Something didn't work out. I'm going to switch it, I'm going to try something else, right? Or I'm going to tweak a little thing and see how this group deals with it. I think she's—I think Babette is right. It's about reflection. It's about constantly morphing and changing. And I hope that you—you know, that you're doing that too as you learn about who you are as a student. 

Sara: 01:02:10

Yeah, I feel like the main problem with why the system is this way is because I feel like other generations feel that if we get told how to do it or if we get help, then it's not hard enough. Like, we're not working hard enough. And actually, when I worked at Applebee's, one of my managers was going off about how college is the easiest it could be. Like, these days, it's so easy with these online classes and everything. And when people say that I just know they've never taken an online class. (Laughter.)

Arthur Echevarria: 01:02:48

Taking online classes is like 10 times harder.

Sara: 01:02:50

Yeah, it really is. Like, I try to not have online classes because of that reason. Because they are difficult. Like for—I'm taking Calculus 2 online right now. And I find myself literally abusing my calc teacher's inbox because I have questions like all the time. And it's not the same as when you have like office hours, which they do, but it is not the same as being with them in person.

Alicia Richardson: 01:03:16

Yeah, of course. No, and there—I will—.  You know, I tell people all the time I would—used to teach online. And there were some students—. When I tell you single—like, not even single—mothers of children thrived in online classes. It was amazing because they were submitting at four o'clock in the morning, they did whatever—. No, because they know what their schedule is, and they plan accordingly, and they thrived. It was amazing. So, some people it doesn't work and some people just... right? You know what I mean? It's beautiful.

Sara: 01:03:50

What Jenny was saying—you can go ahead—about the accessibility?

Jennifer Diaz-Diego: 1:03:54

Oh. Professors just being accessible and understanding that there is more than one demographic. Because I find it that if my professor has an ethnic background, they have more compassion towards students of color. And I find a lot more comfort in taking their classes than I do with, say, someone who isn't.

Alicia Richardson: 01:04:22

I'd like you to say it again, but louder. (Laughter.)

Jennifer Diaz-Diego: 01:04:28

Representation matters in education. (Strong agreement.) I stand by that every day. And it's really hard for me to go up to, say, even a male professor who was not—. I just find myself thinking that I'm dumb when I know I am not because I am here for a reason. And I had this really terrible experience in high school with the Regents—which goes back to the Common Core thing. It does not work for anyone. And people who claim that that it does, they're lying. Because, again, it's lying. It's memorizing patterns. When I came into the state, I had to take the Regents so that they could place me in classes. I had no idea what the Regents were. I was homeschooled the first year I came here. And I took Algebra 2 my freshman year, technically. They told me I had to take the Regents. The most ridiculous thing was I was five points away from technically passing without having to take the class. So, I had to take that class, and it put me behind three classes. And they didn't believe me until I started showing that I was like, ‘oh, I can take these classes.’ They weren't even offered to me when I came in until I said, ‘why—what is this class? Can I take it?’ And he was like, ‘no. Not until you do the Regents.’ But then it wasn't true, my junior year, when I didn't take the Regents and did take those classes.

Val: 01:05:55

And high school as well—unlike college—you're not really told what you can and can't do as far as classes go. I had been taking—I switched high schools halfway through. So, for my first two years I was at one school and my second two years I was at a different school. And the fun thing about that as well, was that my first school was an international baccalaureate school, and my second school was an AP school. Which means that I couldn't take AP classes because I'd already missed the first two years. So, I missed the prerequisites. But then I also wasn't told the—. Actually, until my senior year I didn't know there were credit requirements for high school. I wasn't aware until, like, the end of senior year when I discovered I had extra language credits because my junior year I had taken two languages. Because my school had Latin—because I went to a rich kid school for my second two years. So, you're not told what you can do really as far as classes go—unless you have an exceptional counselor at your high school. Because I know, my first two years I barely knew who my counselor was. I didn't really know where the counselor's office was either, so I didn't have the opportunity to talk with my counselor and figure out what would be best for me.

Babette Faehmel: 01:07:10

Did you say that this was still the case in college?

Val: 01:07:15

I would say that my experience in college is not universal because I'm a music student. Which means that my advisor is also my teacher. So, it's someone that I have consistent interactions with and know how to access, and someone who has at least one class with me and has interacted with me and knows how I'm doing.

Alicia Richardson: 01:07:37

Can I ask? Do you feel as though you know where to go to get the help you need to be successful, and how did you gain that knowledge and that information? So, do you know where you can get a tutor, and then how did you learn about that?

Jennifer Diaz-Diego: 01:07:55

Honestly, it came from being involved in SGA. I learned who Ben was, obviously through that because he was the advisor. I learned who Mary was. They would talk about other staff, and I was like, ‘who's that?’ Or I'd look them up later and I'm like, ‘oh, they're these people.’ My first semester I took it on as: ‘I don't need help from anyone, I can do this.’ You know, like first-gen student, that grit that everyone's talking about, I have it. Turns out I don't really have it all the time, and so when I found out there was help, I was very grateful to just have been involved in these activities. But that was just luck of me being involved. And then I obviously shared it with everyone who listened. Like, I tell Sara all the time like go to a tutor. They have all these people here.

Alicia Richardson: 01:08:43

So, your network—you're working through your network? What about the rest of you?

Val: 1:08:47

Speaking as someone who's been here for such a long time. I'm actually gonna say not as how I found it, but I'm finding that a lot of students—especially the new ones from like last year and this year—are finding it through other students who have been here longer and who know where things are. I've had to essentially walk people through Elston and go, ‘this is the Registrar, this is the Academic Services, this is Financial Aid, and this is what you're going to do here.’

Babette Faehmel: 01:09:15

And thanks for doing that.

Val: 01:09:16

Because this school, especially Elston, where everything is—and I know they're starting to move things—is incredibly convoluted. You can't find things. (Agreement.) And even with signs, you don't really know what you're doing. So, I've found that a lot of people have been learning about things through students who already know what they're doing.

Babette Faehmel: 01:09:36

Yeah, a social network is so important. Peer network. Reaching out to professors. 

Val: 01:09:42

And I know that I found things by just wandering for hours until I stumbled across what I needed. I just looked because I also didn't know who to ask.

Alicia Richardson: 01:09:50

Do you think that's okay?

Val: 01:09:51

No. Absolutely not.

Alicia Richardson: 01:09:54

That's a legitimate question. It might be okay.

Arthur Echevarria: 01:09:57

Okay... what's the question?

Alicia Richardson: 01:09:59

Is it okay to stumble through and wander.

Val: 01:10:01

No.

Arthur Echevarria: 01:10:02

Yeah... 

Val: 01:10:01

I think...

Alicia Richardson: 01:10:04

See! That's really interesting.

Val: 01:10:06

I think it depends on the subject, but in this case, where it's things like tutoring and your Financial Aid Office and how you register for classes, no. That should be stuff you're told immediately, and it should not be stuff that you have to wander around or ask another student and go, ‘hey, how do I get my financial aid?’

Babette Faehmel: 01:10:25

Arthur, I think you're...

Alicia Richardson: 01:10:27

Go ahead.

Arthur Echevarria: 01:10:28

This is my turn. I would go back to the first sentence we all said. We all have to get out of that comfort zone. You gotta wander. You gotta find those things, whether it be physically wandering, whether it be—. And I don't even know if everyone knows this, but do you know that there's online tutoring—right online you get right to the helpful—because nobody knows that, cause I sit in the Tutoring Lab four times a week because I need that help. I'm not trying to be a failure. And we tell everyone, ‘you can go on there and ask a tutor one question and then log off, even 12 o'clock at night, whatever time.’ If you're a mother at home, four o'clock in the morning, you log on, you get a tutor—because I think they're from, like, around the world, so it doesn't matter what time it is. But going back to where I heard about tutors is A, it is in your syllabus and B, same thing from networking, I think.

Babette Faehmel: 01:11:21

I think there's a difference between, like, navigating the maze to find, like, the Financial Aid office, or and to reaching out to find a tutor. Because one thing you can easily access by asking, and by asking for help or by asking your peers, right?

Alicia Richardson: 01:11:35

I think also—. I mean, look, I'm very honest about my privilege. I went to a college preparatory high school. I went to a private college, right? Like, I went to UAlbany for my masters. I knew—I had spent time on college campuses since I was a very young, you know, since I was little, right? Either with my mom or with my dad, right? So, I knew those spaces and I knew how to behave in those spaces quote, unquote. But I can imagine being first gen and being on a campus and starting to wander and think ‘this ain't for me.’ And finding the nearest exit and getting out of there, right? And that's more of the case than not. And that has nothing to do with grit, that has nothing to do—right?—with your ability to see a barrier and get over it. That has to do with you not feeling as though you belong in the space enough to find the things you need to even just get in the classes.

Arthur Echevarria: 01:12:30

Yeah, that anxiety is there, especially walking into a new building or you're coming from high school, and you don't know who's here. And I mean, the first time I walked in here you had—it was different—you had the video game people and the hacky sack people, you know, the older people, the people that have been here a while. I was like, ‘you go to college here?’ They're playing video games. (Laughter.)

Val: 01:12:52

I started here and there was always a table of people playing Magic the Gathering at all times. I questioned when they were going to class. (Laughter.)

Arthur Echevarria: 01:12:59

I don't think they were in class. They were here for shelter and warmth in the winter.  

Alicia Richardson: 01:13:03

You know what? Maybe so.

Arthur Echevarria: 01:13:05

Maybe so. I knew they were there. I never played. I regret it now that I didn't play the game of Mortal Kombat with them or something. But I mean, did anyone go to orientation? I never went to orientation here.

Jennifer Diaz-Diego: 01:13:16

I definitely went to orientation.

Arthur Echevarria: 01:13:18

You went to orientation?

Jennifer Diaz-Diego: 01:13:19

Yeah, I was scared for the first day...

Arthur Echevarria: 01:13:21

Did it teach you where the Financial Aid office is and where the...

Jennifer Diaz-Diego: 01:13:26

I kind of went looking for it myself just because I very am an anxious person. I overthink everything. I over prepare for everything.

Arthur Echevarria: 01:13:34

Welcome to the club. (Laughter.)

Jennifer Diaz-Diego: 01:13:36

If no one was going to tell me, I just knew I was going to find it myself.

Arthur Echevarria: 01:13:39

You wouldn't find it. But that's what we said in the beginning: get out of your comfort zone, walk around. I mean, I did that when I first came here. And just what—I like history in general. So, just seeing the pictures and seeing like, ‘what was this building before.’ To find out it was an old hotel. That was the cool thing. I was looking for a ghost. I was like there's gotta be a ghost tucked away somewhere over here. But getting out of that comfort zone is what college should be.

Jennifer Diaz-Diego: 01:14:02

I do think there's—I'm sorry.

Alicia Richardson: 01:14:05

I was gonna say, have you ever been so caught up—I've had those experiences I've been so caught up in my anxiety that I don't even remember what was said. (Agreement.) I don't even remember. So, I can imagine being in orientation, I'm so caught up in being in this building and starting college, I don't even remember where they said it was. 

Val: 01:14:21

I don't remember anything from orientation, and I know that part of that is that I got lost on the way here—because I have to take the CDTA bus. So, part of that was getting lost on the way here. But it was also finding where I was going. And I had the privilege of having to come before orientation happened because I have ADA accommodations. So, I had to come to the ADA office and get those sorted out. So, I had already been here, and I had already seen Elston, I had already seen the college bookstore, and I had already been, like, to the office and stuff for that. But I can imagine that if I hadn't, I would have gotten lost almost immediately. And I probably would have ended up going back outside and just sitting there until the next bus came for me to go home.

Arthur Echevarria: 01:15:10

That would have been your college experience over. No more college for you. (Laughter.)

Val: 01:15:13

If—. In that situation, I would have come back for classes and stuff, but I wouldn't have gone to my orientation because, to be quite honest, I probably would have ended up outside crying.

Arthur Echevarria: 01:15:25

Right.

Babette Faehmel: 01:15:26

Yeah, I mean—. It's also—. There are a lot of people who are not quite sure if they want to go here and if this is the right thing for them. And if you are that ambivalent about it, like, this is a great excuse. Like, no this is clearly a sign I'm not supposed to be here, so I will not go. We don't need to like make it harder for them to feel at home.

Arthur Echevarria: 01:15:49

I have a burning question for you. What's your name again?

Val: 01:15:53

Val.

Arthur Echevarria: 01:15:54

Val—cause I'm going to forget. I'm going to forget everyone's name ever.

Babette Faehmel: 01:15:56

That's okay.

Arthur Echevarria: 01:15:57

I don't even know my own. 

Babette Faehmel: 01:15:58

You can listen to the podcast. (Laughter.)

Arthur Echevarria: 01:16:02

You said something earlier, that it was when you were in high school—and it was something around the cookie cutter mark—that the teachers told you that you probably will not be successful. Somewhere along the lines you won't be successful going to college and things of that nature. Now that you're in college—what semester are you in?

Val: 01:16:23

I am, I suppose, in my third semester of the degree.

Arthur Echevarria: 01:16:27

Your third semester. Do you feel unsuccessful still? Do you feel—cause I, from the outside looking in, don't see an unsuccessful person.

Val: 01:16:35

There are a lot of times where I do feel unsuccessful. Like I said, I've been here since 2019, which also means I was here throughout the entirety of the online COVID experience. I failed almost all of my classes during that.

Arthur Echevarria: 01:16:49

Which you shouldn't be mad at ‘cause that was hard. I did that too, and it was—you were teaching yourself. It was hard. I had to withdraw from classes myself.

Val: 01:16:56

And I was also doing music classes, which meant a lot of things like ensembles, and my keyboard classes were partially online or fully online.

Arthur Echevarria: 01:17:05

Couldn't imagine that.

Val: 1:17:05

And there are—. I recognize why I failed those classes. And I recognize that it was not my personal fault. It was an issue with—that's not conducive to my learning. I can't do online classes well. But it's also a lifetime of me experiencing, if you don't succeed immediately, you can try again, but you have also already failed this, so what makes you think you're going to be able to do it this time? And it's also a lifetime of not just me being a quiet, closed off person. I have a hard time talking to people about myself and my feelings and things like that. But it was also people reinforcing that belief. My parents reinforcing that belief. Teachers reinforcing that belief. Where they, over and over again, would be like, ‘I know you're quiet, I know you're closed off, I know that you're scared. I know you have anxiety.’ And things like that pushing into my brain over and over and over again. And at 20 years old now, it is quite hard to shake off those experiences where it hasn't just been my own brain. It's been other people telling me this over and over and over and over and over and over my entire life.

Babette Faehmel: 01:18:19

Yeah. Were you raised by my parents? (Laughter.)

Arthur Echevarria: 01:18:23

I don’t—. This person is like—. You're drawing this person on the wall. That's not who I see sitting in that seat.

Babette Faehmel: 01:18:28

Yeah, but it takes it takes a long time to get over that. Just give yourself time. Because those other stories about yourself that you tell yourself, and that others tell about yourself, they have to build up to.

Alicia Richardson: 01:18:43

What I hear Val saying  is that the things that have happened and the experiences that she has had in college—she?

Val: 01:18:53

They. 

Alicia Richardson: 01:18:44

Sorry—has begun to undo some of those things.

(Crosstalk.)

Arthur Echevarria: 01:19:05

She's coming out of her shell, but she doesn't—. She doesn't see it yet. She doesn't see it.

Val: 01:19:10

No, I see it. It's also a matter of I—. I'm not an immigrant. Both of my parents are. So, I am what has been started to be known as a third culture kid—where my father is from China, my mother is, on some level, from Guyana. So, I have, and I've—my entire life, been in America. New York specifically. I haven't lived anywhere other than this state. So, I am experiencing two different cultures that I am not really a part of, because I'm not in the cultures. My mother does not live near any of her family. My father doesn't even live in the country he grew up in, so none of his family is here either. So, there's a lot of pressure from both sides where I'm experiencing both of their cultures and also a lot of the expectations from their cultures. And then I'm in this like middle section of the Venn diagram, but there's also a thing down here that's leading into it. 

01:20:10

That's just the culture of living here, that my parents don't really understand yeah, because they didn't grow up here. And Chinese and—I'm going to kind of generalize—Black culture tends to be very pressure heavy, especially when it comes to succeeding. (Agreement.) Where I've had this conversation before where on both sides it feels like I have to succeed or I am bringing down a bad name on my entire culture, my entire family. I'm bringing down the whole community. So, a lot of what you're seeing now is me being in college for three years, not living with my mother anymore and spending enough time away from home and around other people that I can start to undo those things myself.

Alicia Richardson: 01:21:03

You're unlearning, and you're relearning.

Babette Faehmel: 01:21:04

Yeah, and a journey of discovery of so many things.

Arthur Echevarria: 01:21:09

Out of that comfort zone.

Babette Faehmel: 1:21:10

Out of that comfort zone, right? So unfortunately, we need to wrap this up because we are way over our one-hour cap. (Laughter.) Alicia, do you have a final question for everyone? 

Alicia Richardson: 01:21:22

No, this was awesome. 

Babette Faehmel: 01:21:23

Concluding thoughts?

Alicia Richardson: 01:21:24

This was a great conversation. 

Babette Faehmel: 01:21:25

It really was.

Alicia Richardson: 01:21:26

And it was lovely to hear about your different experiences and how—I think it was helpful to us to hear about what you're bringing from high school and the experiences you had, and how that colors your understanding of college. No, this is awesome. Thank you so much.

Babette Faehmel: 01:21:39

Yeah, thank you.

(Guests say thanks.)

Thank you so much. Val, Amira, Arthur, Sara, Jenny, thank you so much, and Alicia thank you for putting all of this together, and that's a wrap. Amira, final words.

Amira Stevens-Salih: 1:21:53

Well, I'm excited for the rest of the season. I think today was amazing and thank you everyone for coming and thank you for inviting me.

Babette Faehmel: 1:22:04

Absolutely. Many Voices, One Call would not be possible without support from the School of Music. Special thanks go to Professor Sten Isachsen and to School of Music students Aidan Bachorik and Aidan Farley for making possible the recording and editing of the podcast. Further thanks go out to Heather Meaney and Karen Tanski for help in promoting the podcast, to Jessica McHugh-Green for creating and maintaining the website, to the SUNY Schenectady Foundation for their financial support, and to the REACH Initiative leadership team, the Student Mentoring Program, the Student Government Association, and the Student Activities Advisor for all the ways they support our work.