MANY VOICES, ONE CALL
Many Voices, One Call is SUNY Schenectady's student-centered podcast for courageous, honest, open, and unscripted conversations about all those things that move us, make us curious, and concern us -- as students, faculty, staff, or simple, as people!
MANY VOICES, ONE CALL
Many Voices - One Call: Season Two/Episode Six: How to Dismantle a Racist Policy – Bead by Bead!
In April 2022 the Mohonasen Senior High School’s track and field team took a stand against racial bias. When they learned that fellow students of color, especially Black athletes, were unfairly targeted under a New York State Public High School Athletic Association (NYSPHSAA) policy banning hair adornments, Zionna Perez-Tucker, Bonnieta Supaul and Zoe Miller-Graham took action.
Join host Babette Faehmel, Professor of History, and this episode’s co-host Tiombe Farley, Interim EOP Director, to get the inside scoop about how a small group of determined students, with support of their Coach Bill Sherman and other allies, changed institutional policies by standing together and refusing to back down – even at the risk of forfeiting a chance to win.
We were joined in the studio by Zionna Perez-Tucker, Bonnieta Supaul, Zoe Miller-Graham, and Bill Sherman! It was a special honor!
The views voiced on this episode reflect the lived experiences and uncensored opinions of the guests; they do not necessarily capture the full diversity of attitudes within a larger community, nor do they express an official view of SUNY Schenectady.
Babette Faehmel, Co-Host: 00:05
Many Voices, One Call is the podcast you didn't know you wanted. It's space for courageous, honest, open and unscripted conversations about diversity, equity, inclusion, teaching, learning, and all the other things that move us. It is where students, faculty, staff, alumni, leadership, and community guests reinvent higher education one episode at a time. This is your host, Babette Faehmel, History Professor and Student Mentoring Coordinator, and today I'm joined by my co-host, my esteemed colleague Tiombé Farley, EOP Director—and also the team lead for the professional development team on allyship. And our guests of honor are three star athletes from Mohonasen High School—the track and field team—Zionna Perez-Tucker. Did I get that right?
Zionna Perez-Tucker, Guest: 00:53
Yes.
Babette Faehmel: 00:54
All right. Bonnieta Supaul and Zoe Miller-Graham. And they are accompanied by their coach, Bill Sherman.
Bill Sherman, Guest: 01:01
Thank you.
Babette Faehmel: 01:02
Welcome. You guys are here—you ladies and sir—you're here for a reason. You recently made the news—a big splash. Do you want to tell us what happened? (Pause.) Anyone?
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 01:16
I got it.
Babette Faehmel: 01:17
All right.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 01:18
So...
Babette Faehmel: 01:19
This is Zionna.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 01:20
Yeah. For a couple of meets some girls have been facing what seemed like racist—like, just beings in general. So...
Babette Faehmel: 01:29
Racist beings?
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 01:30
Beings—uh, shoot— (Laughs.)
Bill Sherman: 01:31
Like rules.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 01:32
Yeah, racist rules like...
Babette Faehmel: 01:33
Yeah.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 01:34
Sorry, just racist, like, encounters.
Babette Faehmel: 01:36
Uh-huh.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 01:37
And so, we took it upon us to stand with some of the girls and put beads in our hair.
Babette Faehmel: 01:43
Oh, beads.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 01:44
It gets deeper than that. But that's kind of, like, to just, like—we're just not letting that slide. So...
Babette Faehmel: 1:47
All right, so there was a rule about beads.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 01:49
Yes.
Babette Faehmel: 01:50
Hair beads, right?
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 01:51
Yeah. Girls could have a bunch of hair decorations in their hair but when it came to beads—which is something African American girls or girls of color in general preferably use. Whereas White girls would have like hair clips or bow ties—or not bow ties— (Babette laughs) hair bows and, like, stuff like that, like barrettes etcetera. So, why was beads, like, an issue but not, you know, these?
Babette Faehmel: 02:16
Right. Right, right, right. Oh, so the bows were okay and...
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 02:21
Yes.
Babette Faehmel: 02:22
Oh, okay, okay. All right. So—okay—so there was this policy? How does that work in high school? Is that like a high school policy, like a high school rule, or is there like a bigger organization?
Bill Sherman: 2:33
Yeah, it's a bigger organization. So, the New York State Public High School Athletic Association is the body that governs all high school sports in New York. They call it—it's NYSPHSAA—is the acronym. And they're responsible for establishing the rules— (Clears throat) excuse me—the rules for competition, and most of the rules are based on safety and fair play. And they apply to all sports in high school, including the—as they call it—the Hair Adornment Rule, which we call it the Bead Rule. (Laughs.) And the—. And so the rule prohibiting jewelry...
Babette Faehmel: 03:16
Yeah.
Bill Sherman: 03:17
...is considered a safety rule. Because if an athlete has an earring piercing on any part of their body, their ears, nose, nose or you know anywhere else on their body it could get caught—theoretically—on another competitor or like on equipment...
Babette Faehmel: 03:39
Yeah.
Bill Sherman: 03:40
...in track and field. And, you know, I've been coaching for about a little over eight years now and the—. For girls to restrain their hair when they're competing, you know—so it's not flying in their face—is important. And so, as I was saying, barrettes and bows and others have been allowed. And, quite frankly, up until this year, beads—hair beads—were not an issue. (Babette inquisitive) And then, all of a sudden, as I said, at the beginning of the season, they had heard that some athletes, and all of them were athletes of color (Zionna agrees), and they were told—boys and girls were told—if you want to compete you have to take your beads out.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 04:28
I believe one girl was told, like, ‘if you don't take them out, I will.’
Babette Faehmel: 04:30
What!?
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 04:31
Like an official said that to her.
Babette Faehmel: 04:32
Who said that?
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 04:33
An official...
Babette Faehmel: 04:34
Okay.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 04:35
...said it to one of the girls, like, ‘if you don't take them out, I will, or they'll get taken out.’
Babette Faehmel: 04:38
Wow.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 04:39
So...
Babette Faehmel: 04:40
And you overheard that?
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 04:42
I personally did not hear it. But from that meet I've had the girl’s friends, like, say—because we're at Clerkins—they said, like, the official said, like, ‘if you don't take it out, they will be taken out.’
Babette Faehmel: 04:53
Wow. OK, so you—once you learned about that, what was the next step? So, you got together as a team to discuss this or how did that work?
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 05:02
Yeah, so—I mean it's quite obvious, it's not okay. (Babette agrees.) So, we as a group came together, like, what can we do? That, like, specifically says like we're fighting for this right now, right here. And since the—it was all about beads, we decided, like, beads were, like, the perfect. Just—.
Babette Faehmel: 05:19
So, everybody put beads in their hair?
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 05:21
Yes, girls and guys—coaches as well.
Babette Faehmel: 05:24
The coach too? Wow.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 05:24
I think some family members did as well.
Babette Faehmel: 05:27
Okay, okay, that's cool. And then what happened?
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 05:31
Well...
Bonnieta Supaul, Guest: 05:32
Well, we were going to forfeit the meet if they didn't let us race with the beads in our hair.
Babette Faehmel: 05:40
Okay, Tiombé is getting very emotional already. Forfeiting the meeting would mean what?
Bonnieta Supaul: 05:49
That we just, like, don't compete...
Zoe Miller-Graham, Guest: 05:50
And we like, take a loss for, like, the cause.
Babette Faehmel: 05:55
Wow. Okay. I think that's what got you. Huh?
Tiombé Farley, Co-Host: 05:59
Yeah.
Babette Faehmel: 06:00
Can you, like, speak?
Tiombé Farley: 6:05
Well, I can't. (Babette laughs) I tend to get very passionate and emotional about these topics, for obvious reasons. I think when I saw it on the news, I not only saw you young ladies—and Mr. Sherman—but I also saw White students that were wearing beads in their hair. And I saw Black students assisting them with how to put the beads in their hair. And I was just so overcome because that seems like a very mild gesture in solidarity and allyship, but it was huge. It was huge. And for you as a coach to help— I don't want to say facilitate—but to stand in leadership and allyship and solidarity with them as a White man, it was just very powerful to see on the news. And the woman—the news reporter—I could also sense her pride and how overcome she was. You are young people, and you stood up and said, like, no to this—to a big organization. This organization oversees—.
Babette Faehmel: 07:24
NYSPHSAA.
Tiombé Farley: 07:25
Yeah. Oversees athletics throughout the state. And you said no. And you highlighted and demonstrated how discriminatory and how—as you said—racist this rule was. And so, I'm just so incredibly proud of all of you. And for you to stand up and to do this in a majority White school, is that correct?
Bill Sherman: 07:55
That's correct. Yes. (Babette agrees.)
Tiombé Farley: 07:57
It just says a lot, it says a lot.
Babette Faehmel: 07:59
The solidarity from the white students and also the support of the coaches and the parents—that's really amazing. What got me was that when I was reading about it, when I was first hearing about it, that you were ready to forfeit your win or, like, you would not compete. And you are athletes. I mean, you've worked so hard, and you took a stand, and you were willing to give up something for this. And I think that's what allyship really means, right?
Tiombé Farley: 08:29
Sacrifice. That's a huge...
Babette Faehmel: 8:30
Exactly. You are willing to take a stand where you yourself give up on something and lose something in order to help, like, to stand up for racism or against racism.
Tiombé Farley: 08:43
Now, two of you are seniors, correct?
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 08:45
Yeah. (Bonnieta agrees.)
Tiombé Farley: 8:46
This is your senior year, and you were willing to forfeit this meet. And possibly—like, I'm just assuming—not have the chance to redo this. (Students agree.) It just says so much. It really does.
Bill Sherman: 9:03
And these girls don't lose. (Laughter.) I mean, they win all of their meets. They are one of the top—or the top—in the Colonial Council. Which is the league that we participate in. And so, they, you know, by that act of, you know, courage—I would view it—is that they were willing to stand up for their peers and themselves. And take three losses in that one meet because we had three teams that were visiting. And it was something that—we're saying how, you know, we get tend to get emotional. And I can—you know, I get emotional just thinking about it. And while this was happening, Zoe's mom reached out to me and said, you know, ‘I want to show—.’ Because we—I had no idea how to put beads in hair, right? (Laughter.) And a lot of our students didn't, right? (Laughter.) And Zoe's mom, you know, reached out to me and said, ‘I—.’ You know, she took time off from work and came that day—the day before the meet and, you know, put beads and showed the other girls how to do it, and I—. You know, the reporters that were there that day were just standing back and just watching this humanity. That's what it seemed like...
Babette Faehmel: 10:23
Wow.
Bill Sherman: 10:24
...when we really needed it the most.
Babette Faehmel: 10:25
Yeah, oh my god.
Tiombé Farley: 10:28
Was there any pushback—I'm sorry—.
Babette Faehmel: 10:29
No, go ahead.
Tiombé Farley: 10:30
Did you face any pushback? Did you face any pushback from fellow students, or faculty, or staff? Did anyone say, ‘it doesn't take all that. What's the big deal?’ Have you heard anything directly?
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 10:45
The only thing was someone's like, ‘why?’ Like, ‘why are you doing it?’ But then it's just like, once you explain it’s, like, ‘oh, okay.’
Babette Faehmel: 10:54
Okay.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 10:55
It's not like anything, like, bad. But they're just, like, confused about it, almost?
Babette Faehmel: 10:56
Yeah.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 10:57
Like, once you explain it, they're fine.
Babette Faehmel: 10:58
Was it other students who asked?
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 11:00
Yeah, it's, like, people who weren't, like, on the track team, who didn't know.
Babette Faehmel: 11:02
Okay.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 11:03
So, they're like, ‘why is everyone have beads in their hair?’
Zoe Miller-Graham: 11:04
Yeah. (Laughter.)
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 11:05
‘Why are you wearing beads?’
Zoe Miller-Graham: 11:06
Yeah, in school the next day I remember that. Like, we had to explain it to, like, a bunch of our other classmates, like, they were, like, ‘wow, like I really support you.’ Even my bus driver, like, he's like, ‘I saw you guys on the news. Like, this is amazing. If I had long enough hair, I'd put beads in my hair.’ (Laughter.)
Babette Faehmel: 11:20
Oh my god, that's awesome.
Tiombé Farley: 11:21
That’s huge.
Babette Faehmel: 11:22
And I mean that also shouldn't be a problem, right? Somebody—okay, so somebody asks a question, you answer the question and if they see the point, then okay, all right, like, that makes sense, perfect sense. Have there been discussions about, like, racial bias and incidents like that before—like, prior to this incident with the bead rule, bead policy?
Tiombé Farley: 11:44
In sports or just at school?
Babette Faehmel: 11:45
Yeah. At school, have you had like, I don't know, like, whatever, like any kind of group or discussion about incidents that are in the news?
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 11:56
So not at our school and I don't even think in New York in general, but we've had a talk about where this wrestler had to cut off his locks.
Zoe Miller-Graham: 12:06
Oh yeah, my mom told me that.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 12:07
And they cut it...
Tiombé Farley: 12:08
They cut it.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 12:09
...and they said that he made it this far with them and then, I think, the championship meet. He had to cut them off.
Babette Faehmel: 12:13
Oh my god. I didn’t even know this.
Tiombé Farley: 12:14
And it was actually the ref—.
Babette Faehmel: 12:15
Wow.
Tiombé Farley: 12:16
I don't know if it was the ref. It was some official or his coach or someone actually cut it. And I'm familiar with that story because I actually presented on that story before.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 12:29
Really?
Tiombé Farley: 12:30
And... Yeah...
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 12:32
It's a lot.
Babette Faehmel: 12:33
That is a lot. Wow. Like, that's, like, an assault on bodily autonomy (Agreement) and—. Wow. Okay.
Tiombé Farley: 12:42
And just like the student that told you that they said—or that you heard an official said, you know, ‘they are going to come out, or we'll take them out.’ I'm not going to comment on that the way that I really want to comment on that because beads would not have been taken out.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 12:58
I don't know if this part is true, but I also—. One of the girls that came up to me and said that—. So, she started taking out the beads out of her hair, so she can compete, and they started the race without her.
Babette Faehmel: 13:08
Oh...
Bill Sherman: 13:09
Yeah, there were—.
Babette Faehmel: 13:10
Wow.
Bill Sherman: 13:11
We were told of at least two athletes, that I was informed of, that—not on our team—that were prohibited from competing. And I've since learned about beads, right? It takes in some cases hours...
Zoe Miller-Graham: 13:24
It's really tedious.
Bill Sherman: 13:25
...to do. And so, you're at a track meet and this is just thrown on you and it's—so, it's new...
Babette Faehmel: 13:30
Wow.
Bill Sherman: 13:31
...to the athletes and to the coaches. And you can't just take the beads out. You know, the meet is going on...
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 13:37
You've got to unbraid...
Bill Sherman: 13:38
...and so, they—. You know, even if they wanted to comply—which, you know, I think the four of us would agree, compliance wasn't in order for that. But even if they did, they wouldn't have had the time. You know, from my perspective, I see our athletes, our students of color having... and anybody else that's different—because we also talk about LGBTQ issues and really any students who are being marginalized and made to feel other, right? Like, different. From my perspective, I see these athletes having to explain why they're eating a certain food or why they dress a certain way, or a holiday, what, you know—. And they have to explain it all the time. I can't imagine being a parent of a Black athlete—or an athlete of color—because the daily fight and the daily—. And you know, don't mess with mama bear right or papa bear. (Laughter.) Or like, but people, like, they take that burden on all the time. And, you know, like, Zoe's mom was, like, ‘thank you for doing this to all of us.’ Because, like, it—. As an ally you want to—it shouldn't always just be on the Black or Asian or the gay students (Babette agrees) to, you know, to stand up, right? It should be all of us to do that. (Agreement.) And the vote that—you know, Zi and Bonnieta are captains on our team—and they stood up and presented this to both the boys and the girls track teams...
Babette Faehmel: 15:13
Wow.
Bill Sherman: 15:14
...and it was unanimous.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 15:15
Yeah, I love that the boys were so excited for it. (Laughter.) They were picking out colors beforehand. (Laughter.) They wanted them, like, all over their head. And a lot of them had, like, really short hair. You're like, ‘I don't know if I can do, like, all of this.’
Bonnieta Supaul: 15:29
I mean we still got a couple beads in. (Laughter.)
Babette Faehmel: 15:31
Wow.
Tiombé Farley: 15:32
That's... I'm speechless. I’m...
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 15:36
Oh, actually a boy from another school at that meet ran and—towards us—and was like, ‘do you guys have any more beads, like, I forgot to put them in? Do you guys have any we can put in my hair.’ I don't remember who it was, but I remember he was at Colonial Champs and Coach Abbott was talking about, he's a really good guy and told me this story.
Bill Sherman: 15:53
He's one of the top distance runners in all of this area—Joe from Albany Academy.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 15:59
That's what it was.
Bill Sherman: 16:00
And he was willing—. Again, like, he—this guy does not lose. (Laughter.) He was in, I think, three events that day and he was—. He, you know, put in beads, with the help of our team, and he was willing to take a stand and, you know, be essentially excluded from that. But again, as allyship, right? Like, that's what we're looking to, I think, build among our teams and we need more of that, as you can see.
Babette Faehmel: 16:28
Yeah.
Bill Sherman: 16:29
You know, you look every single day there's examples of where allies are needed and so , you know, we said, ‘enough is enough.’ Despite the risks, despite, you know—. There wasn't pushback to them but there was, like, at very high levels. And thankfully, our athletic director and our superintendent immediately supported—I didn't even have to explain or plead and the athletes didn't have to go in and plead their case. They both immediately said, ‘we're 100% behind you in support of this.’ But, you know, as you probably saw on the news, you know, the leadership of NYSPHSAA was pretty strong in their rebuke of what we were trying to do.
Babette Faehmel: 17:13
Well, yeah...
Tiombé Farley: 17:14
Can you explain that? How were they strong in their rebuke? What did they say, do—what happened?
Bill Sherman: 17:20
Well, it started with a phone call to our athletic director (Chuckles) from the NYSPHSAA executive director, and I believe he was trying to silence us.
Babette Faehmel: 17:30
How did he try that?
Bill Sherman: 17:31
And the communications director—. Because the reporters were calling, and the reporters were telling me that they were saying it's not an issue. This is not an issue. They were trying to minimize, you know, how it made people feel. And then there was a phone call to our superintendent. (Laughs.) And so, you know, our superintendent and athletic director—Mr. Shine, and Mr. Bertram—said, ‘don't worry, we have your back on this. We agree with what you're doing.’ And they were—. You know, we have a thing that we call Mohan Proud. And they said, ‘we're Mohan Proud.’ And—. But there, you know, there were other adults— NYSPHSAA and other coaches—acting like, ‘what's the big deal? It's just beads.’ But it's not. When you look at these students, it's not.
Tiombé Farley: 18:23
That’s right.
Babette Faehmel: 18:24
Wow. So, this is such an inspiring story, but I mean—. So, obviously, as you just said—. Oh, well, one of my next questions would have been, do you think this is, like, a moment where there's just a lot of consciousness about this, or is this kind of like overwhelming show of support more the exception to the rule?
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 18:47
So, at first, I was like, doubting. I was like, ‘is this gonna be enough? Like, is this enough, is this enough?’ But then I realized, like, this is all it was. A girl was putting beads in her hair, and it was an issue. So, if we all did it, is it still an issue?
Babette Faehmel: 19:01
Huh. Can you say more about that? Because the policy was rescinded, correct? You managed to get the policy changed, right?
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 19:11
Yeah.
Tiombé Farley: 19:12
Can we do a clap? (Clapping.)
Babette Faehmel: 19:13
Yeah, exactly!
Tiombé Farley: 19:14
This is huge.
Bill Sherman: 19:15
Statewide too.
Babette Faehmel: 19:16
Statewide?
Bill Sherman: 19:17
Statewide change to the policy for the state.
Tiombé Farley: 19:19
Do you all realize that? What you did, like, statewide to get that policy rescinded?
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 19:24
It just felt... not easy but once you do the beads and once it was heard—I'm not saying it wasn't nothing, but it's just like, ‘okay.’ So, like now, knowing the feedback and how much it changed everything it's like, ‘oh, we did that.’ (Laughter.)
Bonnieta Supaul: 19:40
We weren't alone in it, because all the other schools, they were, like, willing to do it also.
Babette Faehmel: 19:46
Wow. Wow.
Tiombé Farley: 19:47
You're putting this on your college application and resumes...
Babette Faehmel: 19:51
Please do, right?
Tiombé Farley: 19:53
Cause this is very huge. Your show of leadership at your age is 10 times that of adults that are—and you're young adults—but people that are older than you have not had the courage to do what you're doing... and it's just tremendous. I'm sorry.
Babette Faehmel: 20:18
No, no, no, Do not be sorry. Do you think you would have acted the way you acted if you hadn't had an ally in your coach?
Bonnieta Supaul: 20:29
It would have been a lot harder to.
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah.
Zoe Miller-Graham: 20:31
Like, just like, the support like from, like, the other teammates, like, other schools and our coach, like, it just like made me feel like we could do this. Like, we could stand up. It's all about the support and people who are like going to stand with you.
Babette Faehmel: 20:44
Yeah.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 20:44
Coach Sherman actually bought the beads. They, like-. It was, like, nine hundred of them?
Bonnieta Supaul: 20:50
Six thousand.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 20:51
And then he also bought the bead, like, the tools for ’em and the rubber bands. He did everything.
Bill Sherman: 20:58
I did some research, and I have to give a big shout out to Zoe's mom because I had no idea where to get beads. (Laughter.) And then I was like, well, I saw, you know, at a local department store and I said, ‘are these the actual beads you would put in, you know, hair? (Laughter.) Like, are there special hair beads?’ But then the key, I think, was a tool, like a—to pull the hair through the bead, which I never even considered. But Zoe's mom was like, ‘oh, you have to go into Schenectady, right next to Popeye's...’
Tiombé Farley: 21:28
Yes! (Laughter.)
Bill Sherman: 21:29
‘...There's a hair store there.’ And so, I went in, and I walked in and the woman, you know, was like, ‘can I help you?’ And I said, ‘yes, I'm looking for hair bead supplies.’ And she looked at me and said, ‘okay!’ (Laughter.) And, you know—. So, she showed me they had all the supplies and all the tools. And it's interesting, you know, because I grew up in Schenectady. So, I've driven past there, never noticed that store, right?
Tiombé Farley: 21:58
Yeah.
Bill Sherman: 21:59
And it's a great service, though, right? Like, you know, Schenectady is such a diverse, you know, town. And the service that, you know, that the, you know, these—I'll call them ethnic stores, right?—like, that are providing to the community. Even to, you know—and a White guy like me, (Laughter) who didn't know how to do any beads, so. But to me, like, that's the easy part, is going to the store buying that. The hard part is what they did to stand up in front of their team.
Babette Faehmel: 22:28
Yeah.
Bill Sherman: 22:29
Who—. They weren't sure, you know, who, like—how it would be played. And also, when the media started swirling, there was a lot of exposure there, and I think that takes courage (Tiombé agrees.) to, you know, to be—and it was literally statewide, you know, news. You know, I was getting texts from friends and family from other parts of the state. They were like, ‘we saw, you know, your team on the on the news.’ And, you know, it felt easy but, like I would imagine there's some nervousness about that—about taking a stand.
Zoe Miller-Graham: 23:05
Oh yeah, I was definitely nervous. (Laughter.)
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 23:08
My teacher actually told me that it was on a radio station down in New Rochelle. It definitely traveled.
Babette Faehmel: 23:14
Wow. That is awesome. Coach, how did you become such a strong ally? What was your... journey?
Bill Sherman: 23:24
Well, I grew up in Schenectady, you know. I went to Mount Pleasant. Yeah, I grew up in Steinmetz homes for, you know, four or five years. And so, I just feel like, you know, all my life I've been surrounded by different, you know, people. And, you know, just as I've had my life experiences, it's just wrong how people are treated, right? And particularly the last, you know, I don't know, six years, it's gotten even worse, you know, at the national level. And we've seen—you know, I was shocked by what we were watching, you know, during a couple presidential elections. Not to get too political, but just—I felt like it opened up all of a sudden. It made it, I guess, okay to marginalize or belittle people who are different from you? And you know the greatest joy in my life—my professional life, you know, because obviously my family is the greatest joy—but my professional life is coaching these athletes who, you know, they want the best for themselves and for each other and they should not have to battle every day to be who they are. And I don't care if you're transgender or you're gay or you're Black or you're Muslim or Hispanic—whatever it is that's, you know, quote unquote, different—but it really isn't different, right? (Babette and Tiombé agree.) Because there's so many, you know—I think you know I've seen studies that say, you know, White Americans are will not be the majority in years from now, right? And so, I just think we have to stand up, and, you know, if no one else is—I'm going to stand up. I'm going to keep doing it. It makes me uncomfortable, but I'm going to do it because I look at these kids every day and they deserve better.
Babette Faehmel: 25:20
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you are so right and you're modeling allyship in the best ways, right? You did more than sit and listen and then let other people fight their fight. You stood up with them and you supported them, and you took a risk yourself. That is really—that's amazing. And that—I mean. Tiombé, you did a lot of research on allyship, right? I mean, there's a kind of like performative allyship, and this is totally different what you guys were doing—what you were doing.
Tiombé Farley: 25:53
There's different forms of allyship, and one of the ones that came to mind when I saw your story was there's a physical demonstration of allyship, and the physical demonstration is what you exemplified. So, you physically got involved, you purchased these items and then you stepped to the side. You didn't center yourself. You didn't occupy the space and speak for them. You allowed the students to speak for themselves and you just provided a platform for them. And so that's what allyship is: it's standing alongside or standing in the back, but being there, being that presence and providing for them. So, I really applaud you, because that was courageous on your part too. This is your employment. And if you didn't have the backing of, you know, administration, this could have went a different way. But I have the sense that it wouldn't have deterred you. I think you would have stood strong and steadfast.
Bill Sherman: 27:11
Well, we were moving forward, and we moved forward. And then, you know, we were like ‘oh, we should probably let our athletic director know about this.’ (Laughter.) But it didn't take any convincing. But I agree with you. And, you know, I think the—our, you know, our leaders on the team were not going to back down. It didn't matter, you know, who's going to stand there in their way.
Babette Faehmel: 27:38
Wow. So, I mean and this is just also so standing on the, I don't know, on the shoulders or in the footsteps of so many, like, athletes of color and Black athletes especially, who took a stand, and just like—you have the attention of the community or of the national media or local media, doesn't really matter and you take a stand. That's—it's really awesome. So, I think Bonnieta and Zionna, right? Sorry.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 28:06
Zionna. It's okay.
Babette Faehmel: 28:07
You are seniors, right?
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 28:09
Yep.
Babette Faehmel: 28:10
So, you're going to go to college and, just out of curiosity, where are you going?
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 28:15
I'm going to Mount St. Mary's, the one in Maryland.
Bonnieta Supaul: 28:19
I'm going to UAlbany.
Babette Faehmel: 28:20
Okay, okay. So, I have a sense that when you are encountering, like, other incidents where somebody is being aggressed on or, like, being treated unfairly because of who they are, you're going to take a stand again?
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 28:35
Oh, for sure.
Babette Faehmel: 28:36
Okay, okay, good, good. So, what if you had a, like—. If you could give a message to future professors, teachers, staff, coaches, whatever, what—for you—what is your expectation of an ally, of an adult professional who we are working with? What is their responsibility?
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 29:00
Well, first, I think if you even want to work with students, kids in general, you have to be open. And everyone has their opinions and this and that, whatever, but you have to be open, and you have to be there for them. These kids are looking up at you—or up to you—so you have to be there for them. Like, even if you don't agree on the same things, you just being there and being a figure in their life—a role model actually—is very important. (Babette agrees.) If you're leading them towards a hateful way, that's where they're gonna go.
Babette Faehmel: 29:31
Okay. Yeah.
Bonnieta Supaul: 29:32
I feel like you can't be, like, scared to stand up for something. Like, if you see something that's wrong, like, you have to say something about it or nothing's gonna change.
Babette Faehmel: 29:42
I mean—and also these are the adults in the room, and they are the professionals. They should not think—they should do it. Just do it. Because it's the right thing to do, right? Did this matter for you when you were picking a college, like how they rank or what you can find out about them in terms of allyship and...?
Tiombé Farley: 30:03
Diversity...
Babette Faehmel: 30:04
...social justice.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 30:05
Yeah.
Babette Faehmel: 30:06
So, how did you go on about that?
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 30:10
Well, first I would see if it's predominantly White, if it's HBCU, or, like, what the ethnicity rates are in the college. Then social media is, like, my best friend on this, because I'll search up the college, see, like, different-colored students or, like, what are the activities or clubs there—what do they offer? And so—that's how I base mine off.
Babette Faehmel: 30:27
Uh-huh, yeah.
Bonnieta Supaul: 30:28
And UAlbany is, like, a really diverse school. So, like—it's, like, a chance to meet, like, a lot of new people and learn, like, all about them and their culture.
Babette Faehmel: 30:38
Well, those are definitely—these are important things to know. This matters. And how about you?
Zoe Miller-Graham: 30:48
Yeah, I will. Right now, I'm, like, only in 10th grade, but Zi and Bonnieta they're showing me the leadership that I could look up to them. And like— yeah. Like, their example—like, with the bead situation—it showed me I could stand up to things.
Babette Faehmel: 31:04
Totally.
Zoe Miller-Graham: 31:06
Like, they just really inspired me.
Babette Faehmel: 31:08
Yeah. Yeah, I don't think there's gonna be an end of any of the, like, activism there. So, are there—what's the next school policy that you're gonna change? (Laughter.)
Tiombé Farley: 31:18
Do you have any in mind?
Zoe Miller-Graham: 31:21
That we can't leave for lunch—no, I'm just kidding. (Laughter.) Oh, geez.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 31:26
Maybe starting school so early. (Laughter.)
Babette Faehmel: 31:29
What was that? Starting school early?
Tiombé Farley: 31:32
Yeah. I want to tail that back a little bit. I don't blame you. I don't blame you. I think what's most impressive, too, is not just the fact that you're so young and to just say, ‘no, we don't agree with that. And not only do we not agree, but we are going to,’ as Babette said, ‘forfeit and sacrifice’ your own placement—especially as seniors. But again, you did this in a predominantly White—not just school—but area. Rotterdam is predominantly a White area. So, I guess that was one of the questions I had. Myself, growing up—. I grew up—and still am—in Schenectady. And I remember attending different sporting events and it was like when Schenectady came to town there was—we experienced hearing racial slurs literally directed at our athletes and to us as accompanying family and supporters.
32:38
I guess I was just—I was really surprised at the courage that it took for you young people to do that, knowing that you are essentially the minorities there. So, that took another level of courage to stand up and do that. And I'm just very—I'm so impressed and I'm so proud and I'm so grateful and hopeful now. And I'm hoping that this does transcend and just like, continue to happen in your community and in other communities. What you guys are modeling is just extraordinary. It really is—especially right now. We need this right now. We need this.
Babette Faehmel: 33:30
Yeah. This is an inspiring and encouraging story. It also shows how you can, if you have the right people, do the right things, you can create spaces that are not only safe, but where you can really find your voice and where you can just show your courage and just really make an impact, no matter where you are—even at a predominantly White high school or a predominantly White college. It just really depends on who is acting with you in solidarity. And Tiombé is absolutely right, we need these stories right now really badly.
Tiombé Farley: 34:06
And not only did you create a safe space and exemplify allyship, solidarity, and leadership, but you dismantled something. (Babette agrees.) Like a policy, a racist, marginalizing policy. You dismantled it. So, you didn't just create a space, you tore down a barrier. And that's huge, and—yeah, I have to be quiet. (Laughter.)
Bill Sherman: 34:32
Well, no, no. And I think of—like Zi's younger brother is on our middle school team. And I think of—Zoe has twin sisters who I can't wait till they get to the high-school level (Laughter) because they look like they're going to be great athletes. And I just think of, like, athletes like that who will be coming later and won't have to fight the bead fight, right? Like, and it won't be an issue. And I think even—you know, setting aside the beads. That from talking with Dr. Zayas, who's the executive director of NYSPHSAA, he acknowledged—. He said, as a White man, he has to understand and educate himself more. And I applaud him—not for the initial response—but for then, you know, taking the stand of saying, ‘okay, I do need to understand more,’ and committing to that. And this month, you know, there's a statewide committee that's starting to review all of the policies of NYSPHSAA to, you know, be more sensitive and, you know, create fair play and safe play. But also not, you know, target different populations. And so, I'm thinking of your younger siblings, who I think are, you know—it's going to be better than it is now. I don't know if you've talked about that with your siblings or your parents.
Zionna Perez-Tucker: 35:59
Oh, for sure.
Zoe Miller-Graham: 36:00
Yeah, I have. They wanted to partake in, like, the beads thing. My sister, like, every day she's like, ‘can I do the beads with you guys? Can I—are you guys gonna do it again?’ (Laughter.)
Tiombé Farley: 36:12
That is awesome.
Babette Faehmel: 36:13
(Sighs.) This was a—. (Tiombe laughs.) This is a great way to start the Monday—(Tiombe agrees)—start the week, like—. But it's just really—it's an amazing, like, incident. It's an amazing action. It it's a fantastic example of really effective allyship and social action. So, yeah...
Tiombé Farley: 36:32
Have you been contacted by any national news organizations? (Pause.) Well, you will. I'm putting that out there. (Laughter.) You deserve to be. You deserve to be. This is huge. This is huge.
Babette Faehmel: 36:44
It is.
Tiombé Farley: 36:45
I'm so proud of all of you, so much.
(Guests say thank you.)
Babette Faehmel: 36:49
Well—and I mean—. Once again, thank you so, so much for being willing to come and talk about this and making our day and giving us all the details here. So, thank you so much. So, that was Zionna, Bonnieta, and Zoe. And Coach and ally Bill Sherman. Thank you, a lot. Thank you, Tiombé, for co-hosting. And we hope we will hear more from you—dismantling barriers as you go along. Thank you.
(Guests say thank you.)
Babette Faehmel: 37:23
Many Voices, One Call wouldn't be possible without support from the school of Music and use of its recording studio. Special thanks go to Sten Isachsen for making possible the recording and editing of the podcast, to Heather Meaney and Karen Tanski for help in promoting it, and to Jessica McHugh-Green for creating and maintaining the website. Further thanks go to the SUNY Schenectady Foundation for financial support, the REACH Initiative Leadership Team, the Student Mentoring Program, the Student Government Association, and the Student Activities Advisor.