Many Voices - One Call: Season Two/Episode Two: Black Health Matters

The theme for Black History Month 2022 is “Health and Wellness.” On this episode, hosts Jennifer Malave and Babette Faehmel, Professor in the Division of Liberal Arts, are joined by Lakeia Bowman, Associate Director of Workforce Wellness, SEAT Center; Carol Maimone, Medical Coding and Billing Instructor, SUNY Schenectady ; Marcus Henderson, graduate of the SUNY Schenectady Community Health Worker Program; and Marla Corpus, Student in the Belanger School of Nursing at Ellis Hospital. Together, they discuss the important role of diversity and equity in STEM education and preparation of the health care workforce. 

 To connect with Marcus Henderson and/or CEK RN Consulting, call 518-334-2254 or by email at info@cekrnconsultinginc.org. 

For information about the Community Health Worker Certificate Program at SUNY Schenectady, contact the program coordinator Michelle Kraines, Workforce Development and Community Education, at healthcare@sunysccc.edu and visit the website.

For information about SUNY Schenectady’s partnership with the Belanger School of Nursing at Ellis and the Nursing A.S. please visit our website or contact Sharon Smalls, Division Secretary, Math, Science, Technology and Health, at smallsk@sunysccc.edu or by calling 518-381-1267.

The views voiced on this episode reflect the lived experiences and uncensored opinions of the guests; they do not necessarily capture the full diversity of attitudes within a larger community, nor do they express an official view of SUNY Schenectady.

Transcript

Jennifer Malave, Co-Host: 0:18 

Many Voices, One Call is the podcast you did not know you wanted. It's space for courageous, honest, open, and unscripted conversations about diversity, equity, inclusion, teaching, learning, and all the other things that move us. It is where students, faculty, staff, alumni, leadership, and community guests reinvent higher education—one episode at a time. I'm your host, Jennifer Malave, and I'm joined by my co-host. 

Babette Faehmel, Co-Host: 0:32 

I'm Babette Faehmel, history professor at SUNY Schenectady and Coordinator of the Student Mentoring Program. Today's episode is actually a special episode in relation to Black History Month. And the theme of Black History Month this year was Black Health and Wellness, and so we have assembled a really exciting panel around us. We are joined today by Lakeia Bowman, the Associate Director of Workforce Wellness at SEAT Center, by Carol Maimone, Medical Coding and Building Instructor at SUNY Schenectady. We have Marcus Henderson, SUNY Schenectady graduate of the Community Health Worker Program and also the Community Health Worker Lead. 

Marcus Henderson, Guest: 1:17 

Yes. 

Babette Faehmel: 1:17 

And Marla Corpus, a student in the School of Nursing at Ellis Hospital. So, to get us started here, could you briefly introduce how your work relates to healthcare awareness and healthcare education? Anybody who wants to jump in takes the lead.  

Marla Corpus, Guest: 1:36 

I'll go first. 

Babette Faehmel: 1:37 

Fantastic. (Marla laughs.) Marla, go ahead.  

Marla Corpus: 1:38 

Well, my name is Marla, I'm a student nurse from Belanger School of Nursing in Schenectady, and, I mean, there's nothing really special about me. 

Babette Faehmel: 1:48 

Oh, I doubt that. (Marla laughs.) 

Marla Corpus: 1:52 

But yeah, I'm on my freshman year and I've been—and, but prior to that, I've been in healthcare for, like, almost five years. I started my way up as a technician in the orthopedic floor and I graduated as a licensed practical nurse in 2019. And now—I'm trying to study as a registered nurse, associate's degree. And this is actually one of my fuels to pursue my degree because we need more people who are more culturally diverse when tackling with these patients, because I have seen—it's not really a first-hand experience for me—but I have seen a lot of racial disparities in healthcare. And maybe, if I join into the group, maybe a single person could you know, change the whole narrative and the care that we receive in the hospitals and healthcare in general. So, yeah. 

Babette Faehmel: 2:52 

Okay. Well, we'll definitely come back to that because that's fascinating.  

Marla Corpus: 2:57 

(Laughs.) Thank you. 

Babette Faehmel: 2:58 

Okay. Next. 

Carol Maimone, Guest: 3:01 

My name is Carol Maimone. Thanks for having me here. It's great to be with everyone. So, I teach here at SUNY Schenectady. I teach the Medical Coding and Billing Program, which prepares students to then sit for a national certification exam as a certified coder, where they can then work in the hospital, physician's office, insurance company, things like that. And I also worked at Ellis Hospital for many years. 

Marla Corpus: 3:30 

Oh, you did? 

Carol Maimone: 3:31 

So, I'm glad to see you there. 

Marla Corpus: 3:33 

Oh, there you go. 

Carol Maimone: 3:34 

I even met my husband there. (Laughter.) 

Babette Faehmel: 3:37 

Lakeia? 

Lakeia Bowman, Guest: 3:38 

Hi, so hello, my name is Lakeia Bowman. I am the Associate Director of Work Wellness at the SEAT Center. And at the SEAT Center, we work with young adults between the ages of 18 to 24, and we assist them with training on different workforce development opportunities. One of the things that I do in my role is I am, you know, the Associate Director of Work Wellness, but I assist students with access to healthcare, access to mental health services, and we also assess and address any barriers that they may have in order to help them be more successful in our program and in life. 

Marcus Henderson: 4:17 

Sweet. My name is Marcus Henderson. I'm a community health worker lead for CEK RN Consulting Incorporated. We are actually new to this whole—new non-for-profit organization, and I'm new to the whole entire health field in general myself. For me it started, as you know, me going through situations on my own and ending up to the point where I landed into learning more about health, as we during the pandemic. And then when I kind of like lost my job and everything at that time—due to health reasons as well—and it kind of like opened up another door for me because, going back, rebuilding myself, changing things on how I want to proceed a career. I am a former graduate of Bryan Stratton College as well. I have an associate's in criminal justice and a bachelor's in business, but I left all of that in to pursue going into the health field. 

Babette Faehmel: 5:22 

Wow. 

Marla Corpus: 5:23 

Cool. 

Babette Faehmel: 5:24 

That’s fascinating. 

Marcus Henderson: 5:25 

And as a community health worker now, it's my role to provide health advocacy to clients. 

Babette Faehmel: 5:32 

Once again, I'm pretty sure we will get back to that. It's just a really exciting panel. So, I mean, obviously, there was a lot of discussion during the COVID pandemic in regards to racial disparities and inequities because the pandemic really has brought that to the forefront and really highlighted how deep the differences or the inequities are. But how have you encountered this in your line of work? I mean, Marla, you already hinted at it, that you, in your experience as a student, have seen a lot of a lack of diversity, right?  

Marla Corpus: 6:06 

Yes. 

Babette Faehmel: 6:07 

Can you speak more about that? 

Marla Corpus: 6:09 

Yeah, because prior to attending Belanger School of Nursing, I did work in various facilities—even out of state, you know, just to get away from New York every once in a while, during the wintertime, yeah. But what really struck me the most is—. I was still working as an aide at the emergency room at that time—I think this was around four years ago, three years ago—I had an African American woman. She was crying in her room, and I asked her, ‘is there anything I could help you with?’ Because I was doing my rounds at the time and she said, ‘no, I'm not in pain. I'm not in pain.’ And I told her well, ‘do you want something to drink? Are you hungry?’ And it got to a point that she just bursted in tears that she didn't like what the doctor has told her in the emergency room, because she was—. Well at first, she was there for pain, and they couldn't find out anything that's wrong with her. They did an x-ray, they did an MRI, labs, blood draws were administered, and all that stuff. And the doctor dismissed her, and he said to the woman, ‘I don't know what's wrong with you. Go back to the’—I don't want to say the G word—‘go back to that G***** hospital that they could take care of you.’ 

Carol Maimone: 7:48 

Oh dear. 

Marcus Henderson: 7:48 

Wow. 

Marla Corpus: 7:49 

Yeah. And for me, I felt really helpless because I'm just an aide. I'm not management. And if, like, if I—. I was just thinking, if I'm in that position of that woman, I'm not going to think about pain, I'm going to think about my self-esteem at that moment. And it's just so heartbreaking. I still remember it up to this day and that's why when I joined nursing school, all of the cultural diversity stuff is being taught to us and I was thinking, ‘if this is being taught day by day, every single day, what are we lacking of? What's missing in our hearts as healthcare workers?’ Because we can't just tell everyone, ‘oh, I'm burnt out, I don't care anymore.’ But you're there, you're there to take care of people. That's why I just—I don't know. It's just very gut-wrenching for me. I could go on and on and on for an hour, but I will just end it that way, because yeah. 

Babette Faehmel: 8:59 

So, what you've seen essentially is a person whose concerns, whose pain, whose emotions—like, yeah, like anxiety—is dismissed because she's a person of color or because she's a Black woman, specifically. 

Marla Corpus: 9:13 

Yes.  

Babette Faehmel: 9:14 

Okay, and it's not—. I mean, if I understand you correctly, it's not just one anecdote, it's just not one example. You see that a lot. 

Marla Corpus: 9:22 

I see that a lot, and it's not only for African American community, but in other races as well. Because whenever I take care of these people, I always ask them, ‘are you in pain?’ And they would always, always mention the same thing, ‘you were the only one who asked me that.’  

Carol Maimone: 9:42 

Wow. 

Marla Corpus: 9:43 

Yeah. And that's why, whenever I do my rounds and all that evidence-based practice, you should check everything, what's going on with your patient. Because, as an immigrant myself, we weren't taught to be very self-assertive. We just deal what's being handed to us. So, if you don't ask us a thing, we won't even ask for it. We're just going to take it within ourselves, see it as a weakness if we ask for help. And I think that's one thing we should learn here in the United States: as an individual, you've got to be an advocate for yourself. But comparing an immigrant culture based on what's taught here, it's very difficult to foresee what kind of care you're going to give if you don't know the cultural differences. 

Babette Faehmel: 10:45 

Cultural competence, yeah. 

Marla Corpus: 10:46 

Yeah. 

Jennifer Malave: 10:47 

No, the experience that you described witnessing, that's something that's happened to myself many times and it's happened to my best friend. For instance, her doctor dismissed her pain. She went to several doctors and basically, you're being treated like you're making it up or you're exaggerating it. And if she keeps coming back for something, she was having extreme stomach pains. It turned out the doctor told her to go home that it was nothing. They wouldn't even prescribe her acid reflux medication. You're making it sound like she's trying to get high off acid reflux medication. Like, come on. And it turned out that she had stomach cancer, and it went undiagnosed for a whole year because they kept dismissing her concerns and this is stories that I've seen. 

Carol Maimone: 11:30 

Which then hinders her care. 

Jennifer Malave: 11:30 

Exactly, and I've seen this happen so many times. I myself, I'm not a big fan of going to the doctor because of how I was treated in past situations and stuff. That it kind of puts that—I think that's one of the reasons, too, that people avoid going to doctors. You don't want to put yourself through it. You have that fear already of how you're going to be treated.  

Marcus Henderson: 11:51 

Agreed. 

Jennifer Malave: 11:52 

Like it's not a big deal, I'll just tough it out at home, like—and that's horrible. (Crosstalk agreement.) 

Babette Faehmel: 11:56 

Marcus. 

Marcus Henderson: 11:59 

I think the biggest issue that I've seen personally is the medical jargon, which is the main thing we focus on as advocates. And when we go to our clients' appointments and stuff and we always ask them, ‘do you know what questions you want to ask? Do you have an idea of what's going on?’ Some feel either afraid or in feared or they don't want to speak up. Some will sit back and say, ‘I can't do this,’ or they just don't want to be bothered. And then when we come into the picture and we get the permission to, like, allow us to speak on their behalf sometimes—if they give us that permission—then we can ask the questions for them to make them feel comfortable. The things that I've seen so far is just, like I said, the medical jargon. They don't understand. We also have clients that have a problem with citizenship as well. They want certain things and they're being denied. They're saying, ‘sorry, we can't help you,’ and then when you go a step further to help them get that, it's like more roadblocks and more challenges, like they're avoiding. So, we have to, like, broaden our networks and look for other resources and bring that all in.  

Babette Faehmel: 13:06 

That sounds harrowing. I mean, you're in a health crisis, you are already, you're already in a high anxiety situation, and then you are encountering the jargon, you're encountering—. Maybe, like, even if it's perceived bias or prejudice, it doesn't really matter, because what you perceive to be true in that moment has a real physical impact, right? No matter what's going on on the other side. Yeah. Carol, do you encounter that when you are looking at the literature or in your faculty role? Do you have—can you speak to that too? 

Carol Maimone: 13:41 

Yep. What I'm hearing from everyone here—. What comes to my mind is a lack of health literacy, which the percentage is much, much lower in minority groups than not. And the way I can approach it from my standpoint as an educator is really to attract a diverse student population to our health programs and send them out there into our community—our local areas. So, like yourself, Marla, you can reach, you know others, help them, guide them. Because how can we improve health literacy if we don't even have a diverse representation in the workforce?  

Babette Faehmel: 14:32 

Right. 

Marcus Henderson: 14:33 

Exactly . 

Carol Maimone: 

So, I think Lakeia... 

Babette Faehmel: 14:35 

And how can we alleviate these or make sure that these encounters don't happen? Where you have, maybe a nurse, maybe a doctor with implicit bias, brings that to the encounter and then, just basically, the cycle continues. Lakeia, how does that fit into your realm of work? 

Lakeia Bowman: 14:56 

So, for us at SEED, one thing that we do is we do educate our students about health care and about mental health care and taking care of themselves, and we connect them with insurance if they don't have health insurance. And then a lot of the local health insurance companies do have educational components, and they've came in and like taught classes to our students about what this health insurance means and how you can actually use it. And then we want to connect our students with primary health care physicians. A lot of our students we see rely on urgent care centers and emergency rooms, so teaching them about how to obtain a primary care doctor—. But everything that everyone has said already, it just really relates to me. And Jennifer, one thing that you shared about your friend and about yourself. I also have like a personal situation where I had, you know, had went to the doctor a few times and they just poo-pooed things that I shared as being anxiety, and there was really something going on. But it took me advocating for ourselves and, I think, noticing that our students don't always have that. So, we're having to teach them to speak for themselves and to know what to share. But it took me and my husband having to, like, advocate for myself in order to get the proper health care. 

Babette Faehmel: 16:35 

I mean, I have to admit I'm not the best advocate for myself when it comes to health care providers either, and I don't—like nobody in my family is, and I mean, my parents both had, like, heart disease. They were oftentimes just not even able to describe to me or to explain to me what was happening to them after they came back from the doctor, because it's just a different language. And if I understand it correctly, Lakeia—and also you, Marcus—you're basically the translator, the mediator, the culture broker between these communities. Is that true? Or am I—? 

Marcus Henderson: 17:07 

That is true. Our job is to basically explain what's going on. To piggyback what you said about—I believe you said the resources, like, people go to well care or anything—I've noticed that there's some areas, like even in Albany, Arbor Hill, for example, there is no clinics or anything that's close nearby. And I think the biggest problem also, even within our community as well, is that there's nothing that, you know, distance-wise and having access to, and then even getting transportation. That becomes another issue as well. I could say personally from personal experience for myself, to piggyback on the situation that you had, ever like being misdiagnosed as well, that's another issue I think I've seen in the healthcare field, even for myself as a—. I'll share something because I don't mind. As a type 2 diabetic, I actually was working with multiple doctors because it got out of hand at one point. And it got to a point where each one would tell me something different or they would fill out my information completely different as well, just to cover up certain things or you need certain things, and then it's kind of hard for me to stay on track, to work with them, and there was times that I would not even go because it's like no one's giving me the right answers I'm looking for. So, seeking help and other resources, that became another issue for me as well at one point. Now I'm doing a lot better, I'm a little bit more focused. I have a team that's actually working with me, not to mention staff as well. At my job they're even encouraging and helping as well. 

Babette Faehmel: 18:41 

Wow. What would you say then are some, like, very common, like, misconceptions when it comes to working with minority or minoritized populations, when it comes to health? Like in terms of behavior, in terms of, like, the condition that you bring into an encounter. What are some of the prejudices or misconceptions that are existing among healthcare providers? 

Marla Corpus: 19:06 

May I go first?  

Babette Faehmel: 19:07 

Sure. 

Marla Corpus: 19:08 

Because I'm really able to share my own experience in here, cause I'm from the Philippines born and raised. When I came here first in the States, I was very doe-eyed in healthcare. I don't know anything, and I'm very thankful for people like Lakeia, because when I came in here, me and my family took a year just to get a health insurance. Just, yeah, a year. Because I mean—I don't want to say it's our fault that we do not know, but we really don't know how the system goes in here and we don't even know the hierarchy of level of care. Like, whenever you go to the emergency room, like for a cut or a blister, I mean they'll tell me, ‘oh, you should go to your health care provider because this is not an emergency, or you should go to urgent care because that's a lower level of care.’ And my dad, he's very stubborn.  

20:08 

He actually has problems with his blood pressure. It's really high. He went to an urgent care one time because he wanted some blood pressure medications, and he went home. He was so angry—he's got anger issues. He told me why can't the doctor prescribe me blood pressure medications in the urgent care center? And I was already an LPN at that time. I told him because that is not an urgent situation, that should be your primary care provider's job. And my dad, he doesn't understand because in his thinking, ‘well, he's a doctor. He can do it. He's got the credentials for it.’ And I—it was a really lengthy conversation with him to understand. And one of the misconceptions of immigrants in here is we're not advocates for our own health, but in reality, we just do not know how to advocate for ourselves. 

21:20 

And it's so ironic because most of the nurses are Filipinos, but when we're on the other side, we don't know how to advocate for ourselves. Just because we do not know how the system works, how the level of care works. And for, and my struggle as his daughter, because I don't, I don't want him to pass away at the very early age, because of his stubbornness, I told him, ‘please, please, please, go somewhere who could take you as a patient, as a primary care physician,’ and he tells me, ‘no, no, I don't need that, I don't need that. If I die, at least I'll see my grandparents again.’ And he's so in denial, very stubborn, and I think that's one of the misconceptions of immigrants here in the United States, that we don't care about their health. 

Babette Faehmel: 22:18 

Yeah, okay. Because that's actually one of the reasons why I asked. When Marcus was talking earlier, a lot of what you said seemed to be about structural issues, right? We talk about food deserts, but there are also health care facility deserts, and so you have the transportation challenges and all that kind of stuff. And then there are all kinds of other problems, where you are not able to just take the day off to go to the doctor because you don't have paid leave or anything like that. So, those are structural issues. But then oftentimes I think the bias comes from certain assumptions about behavior, like individual behavior, that you are making the wrong decisions about what you eat, right? That kind of stuff so that's what I was like fishing for. But you have—I mean, that's another really, like, super important area, right? The kind of, like, literacy, but then also, like, there's a lack of health literacy, as Carol said. Which is also not a behavior like an individual thought, it's just the system once again, but it's then turned against you, right? (Agreement.)  Okay, all right. Lakeia, I think you wanted to say something. 

Lakeia Bowman: 23:34 

I think, like, what you shared Babette about food deserts, right? A lot of—I'll think of our students, for example—you know they have corner stores, right? So, what they're doing is they're grabbing the chips, they're grabbing the soda and they're grabbing those things. They're grabbing the Twinkies. (Laughter.) They're grabbing different things, you know, instead of being able to have a breakfast and all of that. And also, misconceptions about, probably, exercise and taking care of yourselves and those kind of ways too. And not thinking that people are not building those things into their lives. 

Babette Faehmel: 24:10 

Right. 

Marcus Henderson: 24:11 

Trying to make healthy choices.  

Jennifer Malave: 24:13 

But I think that's one of the issues. Like, obviously, a lot of it has to do with racial bias and stuff, but it goes a lot deeper than that. There's so many other factors that contribute, like, as you mentioned, not having hospitals close by or not having a primary care doctor. Not having access to get to these places because it could be in another town, and public transportation can't get you there or not being able to take off from your job, like you said. A lot of people, a lot of minorities, work hourly positions and are not full salary that they can just take off and be like, ‘oh, I have a doctor's appointment today.’ Like, that's going to cost you not having access to childcare to stay with your children while you go to said appointment. Like, there's so many different factors and, as you mentioned, the food thing is real. Everyone would love to be able to afford organic, healthy foods. But when you have a set amount for your budget for that month and it costs twice as much to get the organic stuff or to get the healthy stuff. You have a family to feed, so you're obviously going to get what you can and get the chicken thighs and the—you know? (Laughter.) And all of these different factors, I think, are what contribute to these gross disparities in health care. (Agreement.) 

Babette Faehmel: 25:26 

And it takes longer to prepare fresh food. (Agreement.) And you're already working, like, I don't know, 17 hours.  

Jennifer Malave: 25:34 

Exactly. Like, you come home, you could throw something in the microwave real quick and dinner's done in three minutes, as opposed to sitting there and chopping fresh vegetables for an hour and sauteing this and that. (Agreement.) 

Carol Maimone: 25:45 

I'm also hearing from Jen's story earlier about her friend who complained of pain for a good year, and you were mentioning—talking about pain. I think, the providers—there's no excuse for that behavior. But I also think there's a couple of challenges in our region, in particular, the opiate crisis. You do have a lot of people, all different people coming in complaining of pain. But—so, your providers have to navigate: is this a drug seeking patient, and how do we educate them to work past that? So, your friend doesn't go for a year with cancer that could have spread when it could have been—.  

Jennifer Malave: 26:32 

Thank god that it didn't turn out to be fatal but a year ignoring something like that? And as a doctor, you're trained to know these things and see these things. Obviously, again, nobody's getting high off acid reflux medication or anything, like—. And that's something that actually many of my friends and myself—. When I first moved up here actually, and I went to my primary care physician—and you know how you do that first, like, introductory type? She literally told me out of nowhere—which I found so, like, it turned me off, I haven't been back since—she literally told me, ‘oh, just so you know, I don't prescribe the weed card.’ (Confusion.) What? ‘The marijuana—I don't prescribe the marijuana card.’ I was like, ‘well...’ 

Lakeia Bowman: 27:12 

Were you like, ‘cool?’ (Laughs.) 

Jennifer Malave: 27:13 

Like why would you feel the need to say that? Did I ask you that, did I hint towards that? Did I, like—? I'm giving you, like, my background, why would you, like—?  It's things like that, it's those—. I think when you talked about misconceptions and stuff—it's things like that. Thinking that minorities are all drug addicts. (Agreement.) I've also heard from a lot of my friends that, for instance, there's a misconception that minorities are stronger and able to tolerate more pain, which stems from... 

Lakeia Bowman: 27:41 

Oh, no...  

Jennifer Malave: 

...back from slavery and—. Yeah, like, that's a huge one in my community. 

Carol Maimone: 27:47 

Right. 

Jennifer Malave: 27:49 

And, as you said, these doctors, you need to be educated better—not just as far as science and your schoolwork, right? 

Carol Maimone: 27:56 

We're doing so much education on, you know opiates, this and that, but where is the diversity, the inclusion? It's definitely falling short, and you're not saving anybody that way. 

Jennifer Malave: 28:10 

That's a story, like I said, that so many of my friends have experienced—particularly my Black friends. And that's horrible, that your pain is being ignored, like—. And it always comes out, like—. Yeah, like, if you're trying to get drugs and these are professionals, like, you see her going—. My best friend Lisa, for instance, she's a freaking nurse, she's going in her scrubs, like, she's obviously not a drug addict. Like, why are you taking her pain for granted and pretending like, ‘oh, she's just trying to get something out of us?’ Like that's horrible. And at the end of the day, it really contributes overall to—. It affects us on such a large scale because the huge disparities in health, like, we have everything from the diabetes, as you mentioned, heart problems. We people of color die at way higher rates than their white counterparts. And, at the end of the day, this actually cost the country more money because it could have been something small that you solved right now, and instead it's going to lead to a more serious health problem later down the line. So, it's crazy to me. 

Babette Faehmel: 29:23 

Healthcare costs are already so high, and that's one of the reasons why, right? In one of our first episodes in Season 1—this is season 2 of the podcast, (Laughter.) episode two, season two—we had Jason Benitez from the Albany Chamber of Commerce, and he talked about the need for diversity in the talent pipeline for businesses in the area. And, I mean, it seems to be the exact same thing you can say for health care, the health care professions, right? If we had a more diverse health care workforce, a lot of these prejudices, a lot of these biases, they would be watered down because you just have people who are actually catering to their own communities, and they can break through these prejudices. At the same time, I read that the attrition of, for instance, Black nursing students is much higher than for white nursing students. Have you encountered that too in the literature? Or maybe can you speak to why that might be? Anybody? 

Lakeia Bowman: 30:29 

We try to do at SEAT Center a show, like the ladder, like of how—the ladder of success, like where you can go. I think sometimes people stop at, like, the CNA track. And I think there needs to be education that, like, okay, you can be a CNA, then you can go be an LPN, then you can be an RN. And I think that's what happens sometimes. 

Babette Faehmel: 30:53 

Okay, so that you don't really see yourself at the end of the track? 

Lakeia Bowman: 30:58 

I think sometimes. I mean, there are a lot of amazing, you know, Black nurses, women of color nurses, in the area. But I think sometimes people may just stop at, you know, some of those lower paying positions. 

Babette Faehmel: 31:20 

Maybe also because they don't have adequate mentoring, like faculty, who are serving as advocates for them, for the students?  

Carol Maimone: 31:27 

I would definitely agree with that. It's one thing to bring them in and fill your classrooms and get everyone in there, but then we have to stick with them. Let's talk about the job sequence, the hierarchy of where you can go. Let's talk about creating resumes and LinkedIn accounts. Do you have what you need for an interview? Can I help you with that? I think mentoring and as you know, the mentor program. It is very important to stick with people—not just get them in but stay with them until the end.  

Marla Corpus: 32:07 

And I do think, maybe, it's the socioeconomic status as well. Because, if you're thinking about now, you're working a lot of hours in a low-paying job. You don't have time to step up the ladder and take more classes, because if you're thinking about now, you're thinking it's a waste of time. So, instead of—like in my case before, because I didn't have money before. Like, if I'm going to jump to my RN, I'm not going to have any money, so maybe I could just maybe step half of the ladder and become an LPN. That would be nice. At least I'm getting up slowly through the years. I think it's just a matter of your resources. (Agreement.) 

Marcus Henderson: 33:02 

Yeah, I definitely agree. Even as a community health worker I can say—I can go back as far as my interview. I've—my boss had asked me, you know, ‘how would you be a great asset, you know, to working with us and everything?’ I think the most important thing a lot of them look for is your resources and your connections. You know, how long have you been in the city? How well do you know it? What can you do to help me? And I can help you as well and further your growth? But at the same time, you also got to look at, what are your limits as well? Like, I want to do—for me, for example—I'm looking at mental health counseling on a PhD level. My mind's still there no matter what my line of work is. And we heard—and I had sat down and talked about that. And the thing is getting there and having the proper resources and the tools. And that's another thing, is that most people are not given the tools, even in health care in general. That's why, when it comes to, like, our clients and stuff, we try to make them feel more involved, let them make the decisions and everything as well.  

34:03 

We don't want to sit back and take something away from you. We want you to tell us what you want to do. We'll guide you, but it's all up to you at that point. And I think that's even the same way how people is when they looking for, like, careers and opportunities. We can guide people, but it's up to them if they really want to take the initiative to move to that. Some are afraid. Me, social media plays a role as well, you hear stuff on the news like ‘oh, nurses are doing this, some are quitting their jobs because of this situation or vaccinations and stuff like that.’ And they're like, ‘and then there's a job opportunity but nobody wants to step up to the plate.’ And then when you look at the Black and brown community as who's there to teach and help them as well, get ahead? Who's there in their corner? They want to make that step and there's no help. (Agreement.) 

Carol Maimone: 34:49 

And you're a great mentor yourself, Marcus. Like, there might be a family or a patient that you meet with and like, ‘oh, what's this job he's doing? I like this.’ 

Marcus Henderson: 34:57 

In all honesty, the one thing I can say working with the clients that I have, trust is like the biggest thing you gotta—it's very big. You gotta work with them and got to take your time with them. And I think, even in the healthcare field—empathy. Doctors need a lot of empathy, and they do not show it sometimes. So, I'm just straight to the point like, ‘well, this is your fault. You did this because this is why you're here.’ And I'm like, ‘that's not what they're looking for.’ 

Jennifer Malave: 35:23 

 They're not even looking up from their clipboard to make eye contact or acknowledge your name. (Agreement.) 

Babette Faehmel: 35:28 

And that feeds the cycle, right? So, you have those encounters, so you're not attracted to the healthcare profession, because why would you? I mean, these are not the kind of people you are, I don't know, identifying with. But then also, I mean, I know that generally from the literature and education about the sense of belonging in college and how important it is. And how easily they can—how easily it can be to destroy, like, a budding trusting relationship if you are encountering biases by faculty and if you are being looked at, even a few encounters like that can already turn you away from that field. And if you have primarily—like, let's just be honest—white women as faculty and your experience with white women faculty has already been in the past one of prejudice and bias, then how hard is it to form that trust relationship? So, I mean it seems to be really a pressing need to diversify that workforce and also the faculty, right? (Agreement.) And then, on top of that, all those social factors and economic and socioeconomic factors... go ahead. 

Lakeia Bowman: 36:45 

I was just going to share that I think we bring up a big point with the lack of trust in the medical community. And I think we saw that a lot during the pandemic and we see it now with people having access to the vaccines. It's like there's a lack of trust in the medical community. (Agreement.) 

Jennifer Malave: 37:03 

And not without reason. (Agreement.) 

Babette Faehmel: 37:07 

Not without reason, but then also, in addition to that, the lack of health literacy, right? Which is actually very low period, like, for the entire nation, even if you take all these social categories out. But then one feeds into the other. So, you have the justified suspicion, the historical—like all the history of unequal and really like harmful treatment—and plus, like, a lack of health literacy. And you have what we have now, this public health emergency. 

Jennifer Malave: 37:44 

And, like, he is 100% right. I think that COVID really, really highlighted, like, how serious this was and where the mistrust is because, so many people—. I remember trying to convince, like, my friends to get the vaccine and it was like the hardest thing in the world. 

Marcus Henderson: 38:00 

Still is.  

Jennifer Malave: 38:01 

Yes, thank you. It still is. Like, there's people that are angry that they had to get it, like, ‘oh, that's messed up, like, I just want to go to school, and it's messed up that I'm being forced to take this.’ And there was such a huge, huge mistrust and, again, completely warranted. So, like, I would actually—. I started learning so much about the vaccines just to be able to talk people into it and, like, ‘listen, it's okay, it's safe, it's not going to alter your DNA, you're not going to grow a third arm, it's not a trick, like, everybody, it's affecting everyone.’ So... (Agreement and laughter.) 

Babette Faehmel: 38:37 

That's so funny, I mean it's just—okay, it's not funny, actually it's tragic. But we—. I just had—I was at Schenectady High School for a workshop with Jen for mentoring all the Early College High School students there. And there was a young lady, and she was just—she was stubborn about that... 

Jennifer Malave: 38:55 

Dead set against getting this vaccine.  

Babette Faehmel: 38:57 

Yeah, absolutely, and it just honestly—. At that moment, I was surprised because I had—it's been, like what, a year? (Crosstalk.) 

Jennifer Malave: 39:08 

I was not surprised, because it's common in my neighborhood. 

Babette Faehmel: 39:12 

And I don't want to—. I mean—. And then I was reminded, ‘okay, it's still an issue, it's still an issue.’ And how do you address that? Because at that moment I didn't even know what to say. 

Jennifer Malave: 39:21 

And to the point that this young lady was—she's in an excellent program that's helping her get through college faster and she's willing to drop out of this program just to not have to get this vaccine.  

Marcus Henderson: 39:34 

That's crazy. 

Jennifer Malave: 39:35 

That's heartbreaking, that the knowledge, the—it's still not there. Like, we think we convince people, we think we taught people, but obviously we haven't.  

Carol Maimone: 39:45 

Like what misinformation has she received that makes her feel...? 

Jennifer Malave: 39:48 

And I've had people tell me things, like the craziest things. And then when I asked them, like, ‘if I bring a fact to you, I'm gonna be like, I'm quoting the CDC or something.’ I've had people, ‘well I read on Facebook or I heard on TikTok.’ (Laughter.) That's the problem, right there. That's problem number one, not a reputable source. (Laughter.) Here, let me show you this website, let me show you these statistics, like—but it's still a serious, serious issue. And Babette, you're right, the pandemic has been going on for quite some time now and we think that—. I believe we're, like, at 70%, as a nation, vaccinated, I believe? 

Marla Corpus: 40:25 

Yeah, 70%. 

Jennifer Malave: 40:26 

It's about 70%. 

Marla Corpus: 40:27 

It's not even enough to grant, like, herd immunity for our country. 

Jennifer Malave: 40:33 

Exactly, yeah. And it's scary that there's still people out there that don't trust our health care system, don't trust our government like that, and are willing to literally risk their lives and the lives of those around them because of this distrust. (Agreement.) 

Babette Faehmel: 40:48 

Yeah, there comes a point—. I mean, the distrust comes from somewhere legitimate. However, at some point, it's so much turned against communities that are socioeconomically deprived, that are minoritized communities, and then it just feeds into the already existing inequities and just becomes really, like, this tragedy. 

Jennifer Malave: 41:14 

And then for those that want to—I believe I mentioned this on one of our previous podcasts—but, for instance, when the pandemic first started and I was trying to get my vaccine, they sent me to Syracuse. And I don't drive. I'm new up here, and I'm like, ‘how am I supposed to make it to Syracuse? How are you expecting people to—you know?’ And they're like, ‘well, there's plenty of vaccines, it's your fault if you don't get vaccinated.’ But... 

Marla Corpus: 41:38 

Was this like around spring of 2021? (Crosstalk.) 

Jennifer Malave: 41:44 

Yes, and it wasn't even like—I think it was, like, two, three weeks out. (Agreement.) The thing, like, it wasn't even something immediate. Like, if you go tomorrow to Syracuse you can get it, right? Like, it was, like, you have to wait, and I was like, ‘this is horrible that I actually want it and I can't get to it.’ 

Babette Faehmel: 41:59 

Well, I mean thankfully that changed, because this college then became this amazing... 

Jennifer Malave: 42:04 

I'm so grateful to Dr. Moono for that. 

Babette Faehmel: 42:06 

Yeah, exactly. But that also might indicate something where we can do even more, right? I mean colleges, in a way, they have a captive audience from all over the place, so we could use, maybe, this fact to actually also use the space in order to provide more health care and wellness education, right? And isn't that—Lakeia, isn't that your area? Isn't that exactly what you are doing? 

Lakeia Bowman: 42:34 

Yes, definitely. So, you know, we're educating. We're educating about health care, we're educating about access, we're educating about mental health and wellness. Teaching our students—you know, oftentimes our students they've came into counseling from a negative standpoint. They've seen it be negative, like, you know, when they were in trouble for, like, behavior or something in the courts or something like that, they've had to go to counseling. So, we're trying to teach them that counseling is okay. It's okay to not be okay. Teaching them what some of the different diagnoses are: talking about depression, anxiety, bipolar, schizophrenia. Because onset, a lot of the times, you know, is in that age range between 18 to 24. So, sharing with them that it's okay to not be okay and to seek help when needed, so we do that. 

Jennifer Malave: 43:34 

That's an issue that, as people of color, we've always been discouraged. I'm a little older, so when I was growing up, that's something you just didn't talk about, right? (Agreement.) Mental health was something to be ashamed of, something to be hidden, not something to be openly discussed. So, I'm so happy for the work that you do, because it's taking that stigma away from it.  

Babette Faehmel: 44:59 

And it's so important for students. I mean students in general, like, there's a high level of sleep deprivation, unhealthy eating, lots of anxiety, performance pressure. But if you add to that struggling with racism, struggling with lack of financial resources, like, real financial, like, deep financial anxiety, then it's just multiplied, right? 

Jennifer Malave: 44:22 

Even when we went to the high school, I was really surprised. We had the students write up questions for us, what kind of concerns they have about attending college and stuff, and I was really surprised that a lot of them dealt with finances. (Agreement.) And how am I going to be able to support myself? And that brings me back to what you said earlier, about why people don't go higher up the ladder. Because it's true, in order to be an RN now, you have to go deeper into school. So, A, you have to figure out how you're paying for school and B, the time. So, in order to be successful in school, it kind of helps if you don't have to work, but that's not a reality for most people. (Agreement and laughter.) So, you have to pick and choose between the two, and that's horrible. That holds us back so much. 

Babette Faehmel: 45:11 

Yeah. I mean we have a counselor at SUNY Schenectady and actually in a SUNY ystem, that's pretty much—I mean that's good. That's good because a lot of SUNY schools who don't even have one. But it's not adequate, right? And the budget is not there to support that. But how do—like, do you know about, like, nonprofit organizations, the workforce, how other organizations, other institutions deal with that? Like, how do you, I don't know, train yourself, train peer mentors for health literacy, maybe, or that kind of, like—? How do you break through the stigma for mental health counseling or wellness? What is wellness? I mean, when I hear wellness, I think about white women doing yoga. (Laughter.) I'm just trying to turn off the tube. 

Jennifer Malave: 45:59 

Put an exercise ball in a little bag somewhere.  

Babette Faehmel: 46:06 

Anybody? 

Marcus Henderson: 46:07 

For me, we volunteer. 

Babette Faehmel: 46:10 

You volunteer? 

Marcus Henderson: 46:10 

Yes, we volunteer at the City Rescue Mission. We help—what I like to call the less unfortunate. We help them out, as far as, you know, working the kitchens and stuff, because we want to find ways of giving back. But that's just not the only thing. We also look for other ways we can give out, give back into the community. So, last year we hosted a health empowerment conference. It was my first one and my boss's first one. So, we didn't know anything about it. But we knew we wanted to cater to the Black and brown community. So, we called health professions of each. Like. if it's a diabetic, make sure we have a black and brown doctor. We brung every situation, from Alzheimer's, diabetes, chronic illnesses, mental health, maternity—moms coming, you know, women becoming mothers. We brung everything into our conference, and it was like, how can we, you know, incorporate this conference? And it was like, the most important thing we can do is give them back the education. And then she was like, ‘well, should we charge?’ I was like, ‘you don't need to, we don't have to charge. There's no reason to, just open the door, let them get the education, the sources that they need. They'll make the connections.’  

47:19 

And we are partnered with half of them. We're also partnered with Alliance for Better Health. I don't know if everybody knows who Alliance for Better Health is? They are one of the biggest non-for-profit organizations that's very well-funded. That provides the resources, even to our organization, and everybody else that they're partnered to help in the community as well. So, they helped us as well. We had Red Cross—yeah, Red Cross came through. All these organizations that just wanted to be part of it, and I was like the best thing we can do is just give them back. This is our way of giving back. Give them the education, the sources to go about how they can, you know, better their lives. And then, on top of that, what we did was, we did intakes. Because we want to see where people actually stood in their life, and do you need an advocate? And do you need help and is there anything else you need? But most people, trust is the biggest thing. (Agreement.) Again, once going back to that, because they're still afraid, like, ‘I don't want to give out too much information about myself.’ And I'm like, ‘it's really not a lot, it's just one-on-one and then you let us know. It's a simple yes or no either way, and our door's always open. You can always come back to us, anytime.’ 

Marla Corpus: 48:32 

For me as a student. I just have to add up what Marcus has told everyone about education. Because when we're doing our care plans for each patient—no matter what person goes into our hospital rooms—education is a really huge, important deal for us. Because we've been taught that education is a really—it gaps between readmission from the emergency room, because it just gaps out health illiteracy. Because when nurses, when we provide education, we want them to perform back everything that we taught, any questions or any feedback. Because I do agree with them, if you just prescribe the medicine and just tell them to go your own way, it's not effective. 

49:26 

Yeah, and I think the greatest joy for us nurses is —I mean, this is very brutal to say—if you don't go back to the emergency room and if we see you following up with their appointments, sticking to your health regimen, what the doctor has told you. It's an honor and joy for us as well, because I, we just—we're thinking that maybe we did something really profound and whatever we said during at that time, it made an impression on you for you to improve on your health. Because nursing for me, like, we want—as much as we wanted to stem out with the community. Our only jurisdiction is just in the bedside. I mean, we can see all of these factors, but once they get out, we don't have any control of it anymore. So, I wanted to thank Marcus and Lakeia for— what's the word for it? I'm sorry. (Laughter.) For helping the community. Just stand back and help us when we feel nobody is listening and yeah. 

Babette Faehmel: 50:43 

Yeah, absolutely. I mean that's such a such a big deal in in education, in general, right? To really, like, to listen to the students and to take their concerns seriously and to connect them with resources and give them the tools to find the resources and advocate for their communities. Carol, any insights here? Any add-ons? 

Carol Maimone: 51:07 

Completely agree. My biggest concern is we need more organizations like Lakeia's, like Marcus, there just aren't a lot. And, like Marla said, you know, you can have that education plan down in the hospital, but once they're released—. You read the patient's discharge plan, discharge to home, no services needed and they're just floating. (Agreement.) 

Babette Faehmel: 51:36 

Yeah, yeah. I mean this is kind of, like—. Honestly, this is a difficult topic because I find that so many—so much here is really, like, a socioeconomic structural issue. Like, a—it’s deeply entrenched; it’s really rooted. What do we do as faculty, as students, right? I mean, it seems limited what you can do. 

Carol Maimone: 52:03 

Yeah, we really need to grow the future of our students coming out of here (Agreement.), so that our next doctors don't act like the way they did towards you or your friend. (Agreement.) And we need to reach that level. We need to get all levels. 

Babette Faehmel: 52:20 

Yeah, but—and also provide an educational setting where all our students can really feel supported, heard, seen. Not kind of like put into a, I don't know, into a corner and in a box and where—. Also, I mean, how often do we have that where you get an email or a phone call from a student who says I can't come because I have a sick parent, I have a sick child. Well, I'm sick, well, I have to take up this extra shift. And, I mean, we have to hear them; we have to accommodate that too. 

Jennifer Malave: 52:58 

It brings me back to what Lakia said earlier. I really loved when you said that it's okay not to be okay, and that goes a long, long way. (Agreement.) That goes a long way, knowing that it's okay. 

Babette Faehmel: 53:14 

Would you say that this is a really additional challenge—? That you have groups of students especially like— yeah, let's just say, maybe, Black women, young Black women, young Black men—who feel they have to put on this facade and just basically, like, not ask for help, because that that basically feeds into a pre-existing stereotype that you are not made out for this college environment or something like that. And that actually then also keeps them from reaching out when there is a need for wellness and mental health. 

Lakeia Bowman: 53:50 

I think it goes back to—. I mean, I feel like there's themes to all of our conversations (Laughter.), but I feel like it goes back to a lack of trust. 

Marcus Henderson: 53:58 

I also think it goes back to, mostly, people's core beliefs. (Agreement.) You know, their upbringing, their own background, and how they're—. You know, who's representing them and how they're being raised—how a person is being raised. I think that's the biggest thing. (Crosstalk.) Exactly. 

Carol Maimone: 54:16 

An opportunity I provide students, we're doing coding and billing, but I have a large Guyanese student population in my courses and I always provide opportunities in our discussion posts to sort of correlate with what we're studying, share a personal experience if you wish—certainly not mandatory. But people are very forthcoming when you give them the opportunity to share, you know. What happened to you and your mom when you went to the hospital, or when you took your son to the doctor, you know, how did that affect you? Usually, we're talking about things like HIPAA privacy issues, things like that. 

Marcus Henderson: 54:55 

Oh, that's a big thing. (Agreement.) That is very big. 

Carol Maimone: 54:57 

Yeah, right, because they've experienced things not going so well with that too, yeah. 

Lakeia Bowman: 55:04 

I think that's one thing too, that we do at SEAT is that, you know, our students have, you know, some of them experienced a lot of things in their lifetime. But we give them permission to own their story, you know, and to help themselves through that transformation process. From when they first came into our doors until when they're graduating, with whatever training track they've gone through or their high school equivalency. And it's like being able to own your story. You have a story, yes, this happened to you in the past, but you can own it and take the power back. (Agreement.) 

Babette Faehmel: 55:41 

Can we reach out to you to come back, and I don't know, do a student mentoring kind of thing? Talk about SEAT and the need for wellness awareness and talk a little more about the community health worker, like, opportunities in that program. 

Marcus Henderson: 56:01 

Of course. 

Babette Faehmel: 56:02 

Because I think, I mean, it's just there are great resources and great programs. 

Carol Maimone: 56:08 

I see so many avenues.  

Babette Faehmel: 56:10 

Yeah exactly. 

Jennifer Malave: 56:11 

We'd love to share with the students. 

Marcus Henderson: 56:12 

Yeah, there's a lot that we're trying to do. I know there's future projects I can't speak of right now, but there's—let's just say we're working on big opportunities. That's going to be, you know, another door opener for anybody that wants to come our ways. So... 

Babette Faehmel: 56:26 

Awesome. I also really like the idea of a health and empowerment conference, or health and... 

Jennifer Malave: 56:32 

That’s what I was just thinking, I was like... 

Marcus Henderson: 56:35 

We do that every year, October, and if anybody wants to—it’ll be the first Saturday of October. If anybody wants to be involved, definitely reach out to me, and we can make it happen. 

Babette Faehmel: 56:44 

Perfect, perfect. Well, this is also the perfect note to end on, because we're coming up on our one hour, like, I don't know, like, limit. Thank you everyone. Thank you so much for so many—so much food for thought and I mean, really, like, you gave me so much to think about. 

Thank you, Lakeia Bowman, Marcus Henderson, Carol Maimone, and Marla Corpus for joining us for this special Black History Month Health and Wellness episode. As always, we also thank the School of Music, and especially Sten Isachsen for making possible the recording of this episode, and Michaela Stay for editing. Many Voices. One Call is made possible thanks to the financial support of the SUNY Schenectady County Community College Foundation and because of assistance and contributions by the REACH Initiative Leadership Team, the Student Mentoring Program, the Student Government Association, and the Student Activities Advisor.