Many Voices - One Call: Season Three/Episode Four: "The mission is to unify:" Young Guyanese Americans on immigration, integration, and racism

Since its days as a Dutch settlement in the midst of Mohawk country, Schenectady has been a place where different cultures met upon one another. One of the most recent examples for such a meeting of diverse peoples is the arrival of large numbers of Guyanese and Guyanese-Americans who moved here from either New York City's Richmond Hill district in Queens, or from Guyana itself, in the early 2000s.
 
But what do we actually know about our Guyanese neighbors? On this episode, co-hosts Alexandre Lumbala and Dr. Babette Faehmel are joined by SUNY Schenectady students Deviyani Singh, Varsha Gopilall, and Parsram Pernanand, and by SUNY Albany University's Dr. Alejandra Bronfman, Professor in the Department of Latin American, Caribbean & U.S. Latino Studies, to learn more. You are invited to join us in this conversation that at times took us into rather unexpected territory. 

Want to learn more?
Research on the Guyanese community in Schenectady is still rather scarce. But for one in-depth look at the impact of these communities on Schenectady and the Capital District, see Tyler Bellick; Michael Barton; Samantha Friedman; and Matthew Douglas, "Guyanese Immigration, Homeownership, and Crime in Schenectady, NY: 2000–2017.  City & Community, October 08, 2022.

The views voiced on this episode reflect the lived experiences and uncensored opinions of the guests; they do not necessarily capture the full diversity of attitudes within a larger community, nor do they express an official view of SUNY Schenectady.

Transcript

Babette Faehmel (Co-host): 0:08

Welcome to Many Voices, One Call, SUNY Schenectady’s DEI and Social Justice podcast. You are joining us today for a special episode on our Guyanese community and about our Guyanese students. I'm your host, Babette Faehmel, history professor, and also hosting is Alexandre.

Alexandre Lumbala (Co-host): [0:29]

Hi everybody, Alexandre Lumbala here, joining you as the student co-host. We are here with a couple of Guyanese students from the student body, and we're also here with Alejandra Bronfman. I'm going to let them introduce themselves now. We can start over there.

Varsha Gopilall (Guest): [0:47]

Hi, I'm Varsha. I’m a Early College High School student here at SUNY Schenectady and I'm a business major.

Parsram Pernanand (Guest): [0:57]

Good afternoon. I'm Parsram—my name is Parsram—and I'm also a student at SCCC. I'm a Business Admin major. I'm also a combat veteran. I served in the Afghan War in 2017. Currently out, so going to school currently.

Deviyani Singh (Guest): [1:16]

Hi, I'm Devi. I'm a Business Administration major here with a certificate in Entrepreneurship. I plan on transferring to UAlbany after graduating here.

Babette Faehmel: [1:30]

Oh nice, you're already making a connection here. (soft laughter)

Dr. Alejandra Bronfman (Guest): [1:33]

Hi, I’m Alejandra Bronfman. I'm a professor of Latin American and Caribbean Studies at the University of Albany SUNY, and I'm really happy to be here.

Alexandre Lumbala: [1:42]

Nice. That's everybody on the panel we have today. Could you guys start by talking about how you and your family came to the area, like, of Schenectady or Albany?

Varsha Gopilall: [1:52]

Varsha here. My mom has about eight brothers and one of her brothers—Bobby—married an American woman and got sponsored to become a citizen. So, when he came to America he sponsored my grandmother, who came to America, and then sponsored all of her children. Approximately, like, a little more than 20 years ago.

Parsram Pernanand: [2:17]

Parsram here.  (pause) Pretty much same story. My family was sponsored by my uncle to come to the US. So, we moved over, and how we got to Schenectady is my father's family—his uncle and wife—were already living in Schenectady, already had a family. So, we actually had a decent amount of family from my dad's side that was already living here, already had a house. And we'd come up to visit during the summertime and it was when they had mentioned that the houses were cheaper that we should—it would be a good idea to move up. So, he got advice from his family and in 2009, 2010, I believe 2010, we moved to Schenectady. 

Deviyani Singh: [3:01]

Devi here. I think we all have the same baseline of how we got here. My dad came here in the winter of 2016 to check the place out and then when he went back, we decided to move. And...in the summer of 2016, we moved over here for the betterment of our education.

Babette Faehmel: [3:22]

Mm-hmm. The entire family?

Deviyani Singh: [3:23]

Yes.

Babette Faehmel: [3:24]

So, you all live with your family? 

Deviyani Singh: [3:26]

Yes. 

Babette Faehmel: [3:27]

That's awesome, cool. All right. Dr. Bronfman? Well, I'm just going to stick with Alejandra. As a scholar of immigration, you probably think a lot about, like, push and pull factors and those things that get people to places. Is that typical what you just heard?

Dr. Alejandra Bronfman: [3:49]

Yeah, I think it is. There are lots of commonalities with what we know about lots of forms of Caribbean migration. One of them is that, you know, there's one family member in a place and then everybody sort of starts coming over because there's a kind of community that they can join, right? So, they come because they know that there's somebody there and that there's somebody that they can, you know, they can help out or sort of be a part of something that's going on. So, I think that that sounds... (sighs) given what I know about lots of other groups, it sounds pretty common. What's a little bit unusual is that lots of pl—lots of people end up in New York and just stay there. But we have this amazing—the amazing fortune of having had the Guyanese community come here to Schenectady. And so, I don't know, I feel like we're really lucky to have (laughs) this group of people here in the Capital Region.

Babette Faehmel: [4:47]

Yeah, that was actually—because I'm originally, obviously, not from this region. I'm originally from Germany, but I moved here from Massachusetts—where I went to school. And right after moving here, I noticed that there is this population that I couldn't quite actually kind of, like, I don't know, like I didn't—I wasn't used to that from Massachusetts. I was used to, like, Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese students and African Americans and Hispanics, but there was something different here. So, I was super excited when Catia suggested that we do this special episode, because there is really intriguing—. There's an intriguing backdrop to how the Guyanese community moved from New York City—and especially Queens—to Schenectady. And Parsram, when we talked a little earlier, you mentioned the housing policies of a mayor in the early 2000s?

Parsram Pernanand: [5:48]

Yes, in the article that I read online. (Babette exclamation) It's off of the New York Times, I believe.

Babette Faehmel: [5:53]

Okay.

Parsram Pernanand: [5:54]

Yes.

Babette Faehmel: [5:55]

Good, you know your source. That's always helpful.

Parsram Pernanand: [5:58]

New York Times. He went down to the city and had bus rides for each day—for Indo-Guyanese or just the Guyanese in general—to move up to Schenectady. And he gave three hour tours of the entire city to them. And then he also sold, like, the abandoned houses, he sold them for about a dollar each. Even states here that he sold them for about a dollar to each family to pretty much flip, and that's how, like, the Guyanese population had their introduction into Schenectady.

Babette Faehmel: [6:32]

Yeah.

Parsram Pernanand: [6:33]

And then a lot of it passed off—a lot of information passed through by word of mouth. So, they would just go back—exactly how our families got here, and they were living here. And then it was by word of mouth, the same thing. As he started to bring buses load of Guyanese people up to Schenectady to give tours to. When they would go back, they would tell their family members or tell their friends. And so, more people will get to know about it, and that's how they pretty much...

Babette Faehmel: [6:57]

Yeah, yeah, I think that's fairly typical, right? So, I mean, like, I think that's a very clear pull factor to Schenectady. And also, I mean from Queens, I can only imagine that the housing prices—and prices in general there—were pretty steep. So, is that kind of story a topic for your family, like what got them out of Guyana or what got them into the city—meaning Queens or New York City—and then from there maybe to Schenectady?

Parsram Pernanand: [7:25]

They sort of just—they don't really talk about it. It was more like a, ‘Oh, look an opportunity. Let's not question it. Let's just take the opportunity and just go with it, and kind of just take what we can from it.’ I don't know why they didn't question it. I feel like a question would have been...a very good idea. You know, like, ‘Why are you—?’ The way I look at it is, like, I have a dinner: I'm not gonna invite strangers into my house. I'm gonna invite someone I know, right? So, why would you invite entirely—entire ethnic group that you—? You don't really have too much, like, understanding of in this city—such big populations—or not big populations but such big groups. 

Babette Faehmel: [8:04]

Is it maybe because they were already in New York City? And...

Parsram Pernanand: [8:08]

Yeah.

Dr. Alejandra Bronfman: [8:10]

I think that the mayor—sorry, this is Alejandra—I believe the mayor had a friend who was Guyanese and that is where the connection came through. I could be wrong about that, but I think that that's what I read somewhere.

Parsram Pernanand: [8:21]

It was in the article I read. He talked to a Derek Singh, and it was this Derek Singh—or Mr. Singh—was looking at establishing a Hindu temple. And was looking for a building to purchase, and it was when the mayor was a...Mayor Jurczynski was his name? He...I think—it states here he used a Catholic church—it was an abandoned Catholic church? An abandoned church that he just kind of handed over, and ‘here, you can establish your Hindu temple here.’

Alexandre Lumbala: [8:57]

This was in Schenectady? 

Parsram Pernanand: [8:58]

Yeah, this was in Schenectady. 

Alexandre Lumbala: [8:59]

So, that was, like, the first big, like, building that was bought?

Parsram Pernanand: [9:03]

And at that mome—at that time, when that had been, like, a—I guess a proposition—the population of Guyanese people in Schenectady was about 200. So, it wasn't as big as what you see nowadays in the thousands.

Dr. Alejandra Bronfman: [9:20]

Yeah. I—this is Alejandra—I moved here myself just six years ago, (Babette exclamation of surprise) and I teach, you know, I teach courses on Caribbean history, and I always have a section on Guyana. I've had that—I’ve done that forever, since I've been teaching for, you know, 20 years because I think it's a fascinating country. The history is really intense and sometimes tragic and just teaches us so much, and so I always have a section about Guyana. 

[9:43]

And then I started to notice that some students would come up to me afterwards and they'd be like, ‘I have never learned about anything about Guyana in any of my college classes. So, thank you.’ (laughter) So, and then I started becoming just curious about, you know, why are there so many Guyanese students in my classes? And I just felt really lucky about that.

Babette Faehmel: [10:01]

Yeah, I was—I found this so odd, to be perfectly honest. So, I teach right now—I teach history —and I also teach the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion class. And we had a segment on student and, like, opportunity through college degrees and, like, issues with how they are supported when they come in, especially in the community college. And I know I have a lot of Guyanese students in my class. So, I wanted to add that information about, like, educational attainment and so on for Guyanese students, and I couldn't find anything. 

[10:36]

And I was like, ‘how can that be?’ Like Pew Research Institute does not have, like, a study right handy—and I'm sure they have—but I just didn't find it, like, because it was sort of, like, I don't know, like quick preparation. But it does seem to be a dearth, right now, of research about our Guyanese population, about our Guyanese community, because it's a relatively recent immigration group—demographic. And it's also rather localized. I mean, like the strengths are in the Northeast, New York, New York State, and Canada too.

Parsram Pernanand: [11:12]

That's true. Yeah, when I was in the army...I met people from all over the country, and I didn't meet a single person that knew what Guyana was. (laughter)

Babette Faehmel: [11:22]

Yeah!

Parsram Pernanand: [11:24]

They thought I made it up. (crosstalk and laughter)

Babette Faehmel: [11:26]

I know it's embarrassing. I thought it was an island. Like, and then I eventually used Google Maps, ‘I'm like, oops, okay.’ (Babette chuckles)

Dr. Alejandra Bronfman: [11:35]

It’s a—I think it would be really fabulous to have a little bit of oral history...

Babette Faehmel: [11:40]

Yeah!

Dr. Alejandre Bronfman: [11:41]

...of this community. I don't know that—I think some people have started to do it, but I think...

Babette Faehmel: [11:46] 

Yeah, there is a, there was a...

Dr. Alejandre Bronfman: [11:48]

...everybody should go out and interview their grandmothers, their aunts, their uncles.

Babette Faehmel: [11:51]

Totally. Oh my god, please do that, please do that.

Varsha Gopilall: [11:53]

I do that all the time—it’s Varsha here—I do that all the time with my grandma. She tells me so many stories back in her day: all of her spouses and all of her children, how they, like, when they were born, where she moved to. It's like, she always says that she could write a book on her life.

Babette Faehmel: [12:11]

She probably should.

Varsha Gopilall: [12:12]

I write notes of her...

Babette Faehmel: [12:13]

Good!

Varsha Gopilall: [12:14]

...all the time.

Babette Faehmel: [12:16]

You definitely should, you definitely know—. I mean, in a way, this is fairly common. My grandparents were from, like, Eastern Europe, but, like, I don't know. I probably didn't have your conscience or awareness, Varsha, when I was your—wow!—when I was your age, because I was just like, ‘oh my god, there she goes again, talking about the farm they lost.’ (laughter) So, it's a rich—an incredibly rich tradition and rich community, culture, and history, so you definitely should, like, find out more. 

[12:50]

But talking about—well, as I already mentioned my own ignorance about, like, just basically the physical place, Guyana—what do you think are common ideas about Guyanese students here at Schenectady—SUNY Schenectady? Or common ideas about Guyanese people in the Capital District and Schenectady? Do you find that sometimes you will just encounter stupid stereotypes? (pause) Or! Or! Like, some stereotypes are, like, I don't know, there's this concept of the model minority, right? Are you sometimes feeling that people just basically have these broad judgments about your community that is based on a stereotype?

Deviyani Singh: [13:34]

Devi here. So, I grew up...I was born and raised in Guyana for 11 years. When I moved over here, I encountered the stereotype of you're either really smart or—I don't want to say stupid but—really stupid. 

Babette Faehmel: [13:49]

No middle ground? (Deviyani laughs.)

Deviyani Singh: [13:52]

So, whatever I learned over—. My seventh-grade year when I started doing math and English, I was stereotyped as really smart because whatever I already learned in Guyana, I already—. It was like...I went up to sixth grade in Guyana, and seventh grade over here I had already learned everything. And when you’re encountered as really stupid, it's just by your looks: the way you look, the way you act, the way you talk.

Babette Faehmel: [14:18]

Because you're brown?

Deviyani Singh: [14:29]

Yeah.

Babette Faehmel: [14:20]

Hmph. And you say at age 11, you essentially had already learned ever—like most things...

Deviyani Singh: [14:26]

Yes.

Babette Faehmel: [14:27]

...that in the US K-12 system...

Deviyani Singh: [14:30]

Yes.

Babette Faehmel: [14:30]

...is being taught? Interesting. (laughs) Okay. How about you, Parsram? I mean, you were born here, but...

Parsram Pernanand: [14:38]

I wasn't.

Babette Faehmel: [14:39]

Oh sorry, sorry.

Parsram Pernanand: [14:40]

I was born in Guyana. My fam—I moved here when I was four years old with my family, or my family moved over when I was four years old. Had to move with them. (laughter) But...what was the question again?

Babette Faehmel: [14:56]

Oh...

Parsram Pernanand: [14:58

Stereotypes.

Babette Faehmel: [14:59]

Stereotypes.

Parsram Pernanand: [15:00]

Yeah, people assume that I have an accent or something. I adapted fairly quickly when it comes to, like, language. I learned how to, like, speak properly. So, like, when I—. Like, when I talk online—sometimes I play video games—and I talk online through my headset, and people automatically assume I'm white, just by hearing my voice. (laughter) And then they see, like, a picture of me and they're like, ‘whoa, I didn't know you looked like that.’ Well, what’d you think? You just assumed? What did you think I sound like?

Alexandre Lumbala: [15:32]

That's one of your stereotypes, basically, people not expecting you to speak, like...

Parsram Pernanand: [15:35]

Properly. 

Alexandre Lumbala: [15:36]

Well, not just properly, but with an American accent or something like that.

Dr. Alejandra Bronfman: [15:38]

White, basically

Alexandre Lumbala: [15:40]

Yeah.

Dr. Alejandra Bronfman: [15:41]

Not even American, just white. 

Alexandre Lumbala: [15:42]

White. (laughs) 

Deviyani Singh: [15:43]

Devi here. When you mentioned accents, I was brought back to your stereotype as having an Indian accent, too. 

Varsha Gopilall: [15:50]

Yes.

Deviyani Singh: [15:51]

They think you know the language, you have an accent, but the Indian accent...

Babette Faehmel: [15:56]

Right, right...

Deviyani Singh: [15:57]

Yeah.

Babette Faehmel: [15:58]

Okay.

Parsram Pernanand: [16:00]

I mean, I guess one stereotype that is true (pause) the curry smell. (laughter) It's very strong. It is very strong. It took me a couple years to like, ‘oh wow, it does stink.’ (laughter) It does stink, like afterwards, when it sticks to your clothing. And then you got to be, like, mindful of that when you're out in public. You know what I mean? So, I learned to like...kind of account for that. So, like, I don't—if I'm gonna wear an outfit out outside of the house, I don't wear that when I'm in the kitchen, when I'm getting ready to cook, or, like, I'm sitting down to eat. (Babette exclamation) I swap outfits out. 

Babette Faehmel: [16:36]

Okay. I didn't know that. (laughs)

Parsram Pernanand: [16:40]

Well, I got bullied a lot in high school for that.

Babette Faehmel: [16:42]

Ah, okay.

Parsram Pernanand: [16:44]

So, I kind of adapted. I was like, ‘oh well, you know what, if I don't smell like this, and I talk like a white person...’

Alexandre Lumbala: [16:50]

They won’t...

Parsram Pernanand: [16:50]

‘...I can sneak by. No one notices me.’ 

Babette Faehmel: [16:52]

That's fascinating. So, like—I noticed that you said, ‘I quickly learned how to talk properly.’ Which is also really kind of interesting to me. I had—. I'm from Germany, and I found it really freeing for me here that I just had this generic German-Amer— German accent, because where I'm from I actually don't speak properly. Like, I didn't speak, like, kind of like, the more middle, like, bougie, bougie German. 

[17:24]

That wasn't me, I wasn't raised like that. And it instantly comes with a class marker, and I didn't have that here. So, that was very liberating. Does—do you find—? Like, do you know of Guyanese in your family or friends or whatnot..people who were either first generation or born here, who also find, like—especially those who were born in Guyana and then come here, maybe a little older—who feel an opportunity to reinvent themselves by coming here? (long pause) Okay, blank stares. (laughs)

Parsram Pernanand: [17:58]

That's why—that's kind of why I went down the path of joining the army. It helped me to get outside, to be honest, to like—when I say outside, not outside the house, I mean like outside of the state. You know, go to a different area of the country and then be able to travel—not the way I wanted but— (laughter) travel to different parts of the world. And kind of get myself out there and, like, understand what the world is like. Understand, like, what it has to offer. ‘Cause... when you come from Guyana, all you know is Guyana, and then where your destination is. 

[18:29]

And you're just stuck there, which is like New York City pretty much. Until, like, my family moved to Schenectady, and I didn't know what opportunities, like, were out there for me. I didn't understand the world at all. So, like, being—joining the Army and then getting out there I was able to, like, understand people from different parts of the country. Like, I didn't know that Arkansas and East Texas and Georgia all had different accents, country accents. 

Babette Faehmel: [18:50]

Oh, yeah. 

Parsram Pernanand: [18:52]

I assumed the country accent in the south was, you know, was al—the same across the board. But there's a different accent from each state; each part of the state has a different accent. Everyone has a different lifestyle, you know, and you kind of learn that. And then when you come back with that knowledge, you’re kind of able to interact with the population better. 

Babette Faehmel: [19:10]

Yeah. That's fascinating. I mean you are—I mean, that's honestly, that's unusual, period, that somebody has so much exposure to other communities: other states, travels in the United States, travels abroad, and whatnot. And picks up, like, the differences, and the culture, and whatnot. But for everybody else—or for Devi and Varsha, and maybe also Parsram—how else did you learn how to be American, like, where does that—? Where did that come from?

Varsha Gopilall: [19:39]

It’s Varsha here. I was born and raised in America. So, like, yes, my family had, like, Guyanese culture that I grew up with. But, like, I went to, like, a K through 12 school my whole life, you know? I have, like, an American accent. And, like, my Guyanese accent isn't, like, exactly like my family members. But also, with the accent thing I was going to say...my grandfather—my mom's dad—he, like, even raising them in Guyana, wanted them to speak properly. Like, that's why even when they came over here, they didn't have, like, that broken down Guyanese accent. Like, they had more of a proper language where they can talk to other Americans, like, properly. So yeah, that's...I was born and raised here.

Parsram Pernanand: [20:31]

I forgot one comment to make about my family. My uncle—who was already in the US for, like, I think, about two decades, maybe more than that—he's the one who sponsored the rest of the family. He's also the one that really, like, made it known, like, you need to change your accent. You need to stop using, like, broken down English. You need to start speaking proper English in order to, you know, succeed or, like, progress in this country. Because obviously people can't understand you, you can't really get the message through, right? So, in order to, like...in order to adapt better, you need to speak proper English. 

Dr. Alejandra Bronfman: [21:08]

This is Alejandra. I think that's really—it's really interesting to hear you guys talking about that in the way that you've just sort of adapted and...moved forward in the face of what's really, you know, discrimination, right? 

Parsram Pernanand: [21:21]

Yeah.

Dr. Alejandra Bronfman: [21:22]

I mean, people think that you can—one can only speak a certain way, right? And there's a kind of hierarchy of the ways that people talk. I study sound, and so I'm really interested in the ways that people understand and hear accents, and what that—you know, how they judge a person based on their accent. And I think, you know, we all know that that happens. And here are—here you guys are talking about the ways you just, you know, you learned about that and you kind of adapted to it. And when...it should be the other way around, right? (Dr. Bronfman laughs) 

[21:54]

Like, people in the US should be adapting to the way everybody speaks, right? And there shouldn't be discrimination about the way you talk, or sort of a requirement that you fit in, and that you speak a certain way. But it's not that way, right? And you guys really sort of confronted that in this really, I don't know, powerful. It's really powerful to hear you guys talk about that.

Babette Faehmel: [22:15]

I think this is oftentimes just not recognized by people who maybe don't have, like, a recent immigration background. How much of this, like, you have one family—you have a family with one culture. You are, like—you go to high school with a different culture. You then adapt to, like, college and a different culture. You go into the workforce; you adapt to a different culture. And who you, kind of like, you are very, I don't know, it's very fluid, right? 

[22:44]

So, yeah, do you do—? I mean it's sometimes—sometimes in the literature about, like, DEI, you see that people are forced into boxes and are basically made to conform to like a majority culture. Like the melting pot; like melt in there, or act like white—mainstream—white middle class professionals expect them to act. Did you have that experience or did you just like find it all kind of, I don't know, like; ‘okay, so here's—here are these expectations and there are those expectations and I'm flexible enough to adapt to either one.’ Or how did that—? How did you experience that?

Varsha Gopilall: [23:27]

It's Varsha here. So, growing up in a regular American school system...Like in our neighborhood, nobody is really, like, that white, like, high class. (Babette laughs) You know, you have to act prim and proper. Everybody had their, like, own group of cultures. Like, there was Hispanics, and Native Americans and—not Native Americans, African Americans—and Guyanese, and, you know, everybody was friends with everybody. But there was, like, this stereotype that all Guyanese kids had to be with other Guyanese kids, and I felt pressured to, like, be with them. But I didn't really like it because, like, their culture was so, like, vulgar. And I didn't like doing that because they cussed and they, like, made vulgar comments about other people. So, like, to me I feel like young Guyanese students that I, like, saw back then were not, like, mature enough. They were raised in a certain way that was, like, really bad. I didn't want to be around it. But I made my own friends and they, like, weren't all Guyanese, but yeah, that was my experience.

Babette Faehmel: [24:47]

When you say vulgar...can you say a little more about that? I mean, like, or...like, I think... well, young folks generally cuss a lot...

Alexandre Lumbala: [24:57]

Could be a litt—yeah. (laughter)

Babette Faehmel: [25:01]

...or, maybe, I don't know. (laughter)

Varsha Gopilall: [25:03]

In middle school the—like, all of the brown boys and girls, they made, like, vulgar comments about each other or other people. Like, it could be racial or sexist, or anything like that. They'll be rude to teachers; they'll be rude to other kids. And I didn't like—. Like, I knew that if I was in the group with them, like, I would be—like, that would be my reputation too, that I was just like all of them. Because they wanted that group, they wanted that reputation to try to be better than everybody else or just, like, different, like, stand out as some sort of group. I didn't want to be a part of that so...

Babette Faehmel: [25:46]

Yeah, so do you think that's a middle school thing, or is that something that is about being a minoritized community or culturally specific or distinctive community in Schenectady? Or does it have something to do with where you maybe pick up those cues?

Varsha Gopilall: [26:03]

I definitely think that it was—. Part of it had to do with, like, young immature—like, at that age you're young and immature. But I also noticed, like, in my family on my dad's side, they were very toxic. So, like, my cousins that I'm not close with, they got their toxic traits from their parents. And their parents didn't really do any disciplining, and they let their kids disrespect other family members, and stuff like that. It's not like that for every family. But I see that a lot with my family members and some of my friends' family members, and we just like, relate and talk about it.

Parsram Pernanand: [26:43]

Yeah, I feel the same way. I think the main thing is that, like, the younger Guyanese kids, they were very racist, very sexist, like she said. But it's being backed up by their parents' beliefs, because their parents were also racist. Like how we mentioned during, like, the last meeting we had...

Varsha Gopilall: [27:05]

The planning.

Parsram Pernanand: [27:06]

Oh yeah, planning. Yeah, we mentioned during the planning about the racial tensions in Guyana between Indo-Guyanese and Afro-Guyanese. I believe that hate just got transferred over to the US and that hate is being pushed towards African Americans and the Black community in general, and that's where those kids are learning that from. They're learning it from their parents. 

Babette Faehmel: [27:25]

Yeah. 

Parsram Pernanand: [27:25]

It's just being passed on and being embraced too, like the kids are. They're feeling more confident making those comments because their parents are telling them...

Varsha Gopilall: [27:32]

Yeah.

Parsram Pernanand: [27:33]

‘Well, you have to marry a Guyanese person. It's not good to marry anybody else.’ And then the whole reason of not marrying anybody else is they back it up with all those racist beliefs. 

Babette Faehmel: [27:40]

Yeah, yeah. So, they have raised like...true Americans.

Parsram Pernanand: [27:46]

Yeah, so they're raising, like, little racist kids. (laughter)

Deviyani Singh: [27:48]

It's like social learning from your parents. 

Babette Faehmel: [27:50]

Yeah, it is. It is social learning.

Varsha Gopilall: [27:51]

Yeah.

Babette Faehmel: [27:51]

But I was, I actually—. I mean, as I said, I didn't know anything much about Guyana, Guyanese Americans, Guyanese and Schenectady. But when I was searching for information, I found, like, I found a really awesome master's thesis about immigration to, well, New York City and Queens, and about identity and identity formation. And it had this really neat historical background from, like, starting in Guyana. And, like, there was apparently, after when indentured servitude ended, a British policy that gave land grants to the Indo-Guyanese but not the Afro-Guyanese. So, this kind of, like, divide and conquer—that you mentioned earlier Parsram when we were talking, before the podcast recording started—had already the colonial or the Guyanese roots, right? And it's kind of—. Just, it's an odd parallel—or not odd—but it's an interesting parallel between that, well, Guyanese background and colonial policies and well, yeah, the colonizers' policies in order to prevent different ethnic groups to be, like, in solidarity with one another. And then once again, there's some, like, some other, some second act of, well, basically giving out really cozy mortgages or the houses for—as you had mentioned earlier—for $1, because there's one population that is imbued with this like model minority label and another one is not, right? So, I find that it's not necessarily just racism that you soak up by, like, around the dinner table, but it's also oftentimes policy that creates these kind of stereotypes. (pause) Yeah.

Parsram Pernanand: [28:48]

Yeah, I completely agree. (laughter)

Babette Faehmel: [29:50]

So, as we are already on that topic of relationships between communities, different communities, what would you say, like—? How are—? What are relationships like within the Guyanese communities between different generations, different cohorts, maybe, like, the ones that came earlier, the ones that come—that came more recently? And also, among, like, the Guyanese community and other, like, ethnic communities in Schenectady and the Capital Region?

Alexandre Lumbala: [30:19]

For me, my background, as maybe just a couple of you guys in the room know: I'm an international student. I'm African, from Congo and I grew up in Botswana. So, I moved here last year. And I moved to Schenectady, like, in the middle of last year. And, like—the same thing as Babette—getting to know, like the Guyanese community that I had no idea about before I moved to America, and then learning more and more about it. And yeah, there's a lot of things that you guys touched on. But to be more specific to Babette's question about—how do you say—connections between different communities in Schenectady. So, like...I really don't—how to put this. So, you just mentioned, Parsram, with the whole—with the whole tensions between Afro-Guyanese and Indo-Guyanese. But I feel like when I got here, I saw that there was a good solidarity between African immigrants and Guyanese immigrants. I feel like they still do strike a difference between African Americans and just regular Africans because they see, like, a solidarity from coming from, you know, a third-world country and then, like, coming and struggling in Schenectady—or in America in general. So, I don't know, like, do you feel like that's the same thing with, like, your version of the community, or do you see something different?

Varsha Gopilall: [31:36]

I have something to say.

Alexandre Lumbala: [31:37]

Go ahead.

Varsha Gopilall: [31:38]

It's Varsha here. So, I think like one thing I observe with my family members is that they'll have more respect for Africans, like, other...people who have a cultural background, struggled, like, came up, while, like, some of my family members, are racist. So, like, when they see, like, regular African Americans, they look down on them. When they, like, look at Africans, like, equally—in a sense—cause they just have more respect for them.

Babette Faehmel: [32:11]

I think that's an unfortunate and really pervasive racist sentiment in this country that African-Americans struggle and are really dealing with this like very pervasive anti-blackness and all these stereotypes. And it's an issue that really is very harmful to the whole community.

Parsram Pernanand: [32:34]

From my observations...The Guyanese population that moved here. They're racist against everyone except white people. (laughter) That's what I've noticed. They’re racist against Hispanics. They’re racist against Black-Americans. I've only found maybe a few guys who are fond of Africans, but as far as I know they dislike everyone who isn't them or white and the Guyanese population that came earlier on and established their property here, their names here. They moved forward, they progressed, and they became successful. And then they created a class system we talked about in the meeting and the discussion that we had before between you know, ‘hey, I'm already here and another guys, another group of guys who are coming, but they're just —. They just got here, so they're less than us.’ They're peasants, and they get treated differently. While they're doing that and they're progressing in their mind, they're believing okay, well, we'll become whiter. They want to be white people. That's the thing.

Babette Faehmel: [33:43]

Act white. 

Varsha Gopilall: [33:44]

Yeah, like, they look up to them.

Parsram Pernanand: [33:47]

They look up to—in general—just white people. Which, in my personal opinion, is definitely the wrong answer (someone laughs) because you're being oppressed...

Babette Faehmel: [33:57]

Yeah.

Parsram Pernanand: [33:58]

...by these people, by the system. And you're not the only people being oppressed, yet you're acting different towards the others being oppressed. You know what I mean? You're acting like you're better than them, but you’re—we're all in the same, we're all in the same boat. And if we all had the same idea and thought together on this and united, I feel like we can go in a different direction.

Babette Faehmel: [34:18]

Yeah.

Dr. Alejandra Bronfman: [34:17]

So, that's so—. This is my question. You guys are—you seem to have realized that and recognized it and seem to have found ways to think differently, right? So how does that happen? How does that, you know?

Babette Faehmel: [34:32]

Yeah.

Dr. Alejandra Bronfman: [34:33]

Where do you get that from? Did you just figure it out or, you know, did you have different kinds of relationships? Or, you know, does every young person think their parents are always wrong, which, you know, I (laughs) I always did. Like, how does that happen? Cause, yeah... 

Parsram Pernanand: [34:37]

(unintelligible)

Babette Faehmel: [34:48]

Well, you probably were exposed to a lot of diversity in the army?

Parsram Pernanand: [34:52]

I was.

Babette Faehmel: [34:53]

Varsha went to Schenectady high, which is, I think, 70 percent non-white. 

Varsha Gopilall:

(laughter) Yeah.

Babette Faehmel: [34:59]

And Devi you too?

Deviyani Singh: [35:01]

Yeah, I graduated from Schenectady High in 2022.

Parsram Pernanand: [35:03]

What was that question again? Sorry, I forgot.

Dr. Alejandra Bronfman: [35:05]

How did you, you know, if you, you know, you're talking about the ways that people who moved here, Guyanese people, are sort of racist about everybody except for white people, right? And so how did you guys transcend that? Like, it seem—I'm sure you're not racist, right? (laughter) So, how did you know? How did you kind of—? When did that—? When did you realize that, like wait a minute, we have to think differently? How did that happen?

Parsram Pernanand: [35:31]

When I was young. Well...once I was able to develop my mind and, like, actually think logically which is, like—.  If you're reading a lot and you're really, like, paying attention, then you develop it sooner than most people. So, I was able to, like... By the time, like, middle school... got, like—. I got onto middle school, got into high school, started to really think about stuff, ask questions. It was like when I was, like, I could definitely see that everything's really racist and how can we, like, think differently, how can we change this? And I've asked questions and I got shut down by Guyanese elders whenever I asked, you know, ‘why is it like this?’ And then I've asked them...I even like, explained to them that the community that you're having a problem within Guyana isn't the same community that's here in the US. And I mean, you're dealing, you're—just because you—already, you're racist towards one group and you've already, like... what's the word I'm trying to look for...you formed like a main idea about an entire group, like a stereotype.

Alexandre Lumbala: [36:29]

Yeah.

Parsram Pernanand: [36:30]

And then you come to a whole new country and you bring all that hate with you, rather than trying to change your mind and understand there's differences. Understand things and understand that the problems you face in your country weren't because of that group but because of the system in place and the government that's making all these rules up to oppress whichever group you know. And they hear that logic and then, instead of accepting it, they deny it, and it's just like a ignorance, I believe. I guess it blinds them.

Babette Faehmel: [37:01]

I guess parents don't like 

Deviyani Singh: [37:05]

Yeah. Devi here. So, like he said, it really hit me when I was young, like it hit me when I was in history class, that I can't be acting this way, the way my parents act, family act.

Babette Faehmel: [37:15]

Because of what you saw people do...

Deviyani Singh: [37:16]

Yes. 

Babette Faehmel: [37:17]

...or what you learned? 

Deviyani Singh: [37:19]

I learned it...

Babette Faehmel: [37:20]

In history class?

Deviyani Singh: [37:21]

Yes.

Babette Faehmel: [37:21]

I like that. 

Alexandre Lumbala: [37:22]

What was it that you covered in history class that made you...?

Deviyani Singh: [37:24]

When the topic of racism and Black and slavery when, like, that part of the class came up. It really hit me that I can't be acting the way my family, friends, and everyone else act. We can't be acting racist to this group of people and not this group.

Babette Faehmel: [37:40]

No, that's the power of education. 

Deviyani Singh: [37:42]

Yes.

Babette Faehmel: [37:43]

I mean, I have to say....I mean—obviously—I grew up in Germany and I left the country before globalization really diversified the country. But I always found the stereotypes that existed in my family against guest workers from Greece and Turkey incredibly idiotic because I was also raised on, like, anti-fascist education. We had the Nazi period, and, like, there was a lot of emphasis on ‘never again’ and, like, ‘it should never happen again.’ And I just thought how can you have that kind of cognitive dissonance where you see that one example of racism as absolutely unredeemably horrendous, but then you perpetuate it in different form—in milder fashion—against your neighbors, right? But unfortunately, it seems to be like—I mean, it hasn't stopped. (laughs) So...

Parsram Pernanand: [38:41]

I feel like the solution to this problem, to be quite honest, is for the younger generation—the next generation of Guyanese people—to...think different from your parents. Think differently. And if you're in a family that owns a business and your family business has a lot of influence, I would suggest that, once the family business passes over to you, take control of it and take it in a different direction. Don't be so...I don't know a lot of words, to be honest...Don't be so...Is it indifferent, what I'm looking for?

Babette Faehmel: [39:19]

Probably.

Alexandre Lumbala: [39:20]

Indifference...

Babette Faehmel: [39:21]

Indifference can be pretty toxic.

Parsram Pernanand: [39:24]

Yeah. Just...what was I getting to?

Babette Faehmel: [39:27]

Or ignorant?

Parsram Pernanand: [39:28]

Ignorant, yeah.

Babette Faehmel: [39:33]

It might be both. 

Alexandre Lumbala: [39:32]

You basically want the next generation that, like, takes on the businesses and, you know, starts doing stuff to take into account different groups. Take into account, like, that there's other people that they could help as well, including the Guyanese community, and also outside of it. 

Parsram Pernanand: [39:45]

Exactly. And...

Deviyani Singh: [39:46]

Basically... (unintelligible) 

Parsram Pernanand: [39:50]

Not a better reputation. We’re not...The mission isn't to look for reputation. The mission is to unify and create true equality.

Babette Faehmel: [40:00]

Yeah.

Parsram Pernanand: [40:01]

And not obey with the system and take the benefits of the system and just benefit from that. Take it as a tip for face value, like, oh yeah, I was given this for free. Thanks, I appreciate it. (Alex laughs) You know what I mean. Why was I given it for free? Why is it given to me? How can I share this? You know?

Babette Faehmel: [40:17]

Oh my god,[CP1]  I find that is, like, again and again that repeats. Right, people are the beneficiaries of a policy and they just, like, conveniently forget about it. Right, you have that with, like, people who were, like, after World War II in the United States who got the benefits of the GI Bill and really, really, like, very generous mortgages and educational benefits and stuff like that. In Germany too, people who got, like, after World War II, the reconstruction, the Marshall Plan, built up businesses and conveniently forget about it. And then the story they tell is, ‘I did this. I own this. I pulled myself up by the bootstraps.’ So, I find that's such a toxic stereotype or toxic ideology that exists in so many advanced capitalist countries. How would you say—can we educate against that?

Dr. Alejandra Bronfman: [41:17]

Listen to this podcast.

Parsram Pernanand: [41:18]

Yeah. (laughter)

Babette Faehmel: [41:21]

Go to a history class. Take history classes.

Dr. Alejandra Bronfman: [41:22]

Yeah.

Parsram Pernanand: [41:25]

If you see inequality, fix it. If you’re...

Alexandre Lumbala: [41:28]

Have more conversations...

Parsram Pernanand: [41:29]

Have more conversations...

Alexandre Lumbala: [41:30]

Like, point it out.

Babette Faehmel: [41:31]

Yeah, yeah...

Parsram Pernanand: [41:31]

Don't look at something and then be like, ‘you know what, well, it's not my problem, I'll just turn away and deal with my own problems. I'll figure it out tomorrow.’ You know what I mean?

Babette Faehmel: [41:40]

Oh.

Parsram Pernanand: [41:41]

Actually look into it. If I see...

Babette Faehmel: [41:42]

Yeah, right.

Parsram Pernanand: [41:42]

...that there's...Let's take, for example...Let's take for example: a racist Guyanese landlord. (laughter) You know? And they're evicting African American families for absolutely no fucking reason. (laughter)

Babette Faehmel: [41:57]

That's fine, now I just have to check the box...

Parsram Pernanand: [41:59]

Sorry.

Babette Faehmel: [41:59]

... ‘it's not for children.’

Parsram Pernanand: [42:02]

Sorry about that.

Alexandre Lumbala: [42:04]

‘Check the box not for children.’ (laughs) Is that a thing that happens often, Parsram?

Parsram Pernanand: [42:09]

It does happ—well, I have a friend of mine whose family was...they weren't evicted, they were just kind of told to leave. They're told they have to go. They're African-Americans and their landlord is Guyanese and I mean... 

Alexandre Lumbala: [42:22]

With no other motives, nothing?

Parsram Pernanand: [42:23]

There's nothing. There's nothing, no. There's no, ‘oh, you're late on rent.’ Everything was— everything was fine. So...the thing is...the solution I see is...let's say, for example, that landlord, that racist landlord, their children having different ideas and not being racist. And just being open and not—. You know, being open to solving the inequality. 

[42:49]

Now you can either... in my opinion, if it was me...I would, as a landlord...if a black-owned business was renting the property and I was a landlord of the property—to give more power or to give more freedom—give them the property, sell them a property. You know what I mean? Let them be their own landlords, for their own businesses and not have someone else controlling it. Especially if that someone else isn't really thinking for the betterment of that business.

Babette Faehmel: [43:24]

I mean that just gives—if I listen to this—like real, like, hope and confidence in in your generation and having a different mindset. But as you—as Varsha already mentioned, it's not universal, right? There are these deeply ingrained stereotypes, even among young people, so that's rather unfortunate. So, another thing that is a hot topic in American culture and American politics is immigration. Professor Bronfman, if you are listening to, like, these young folks talking about their families and their experiences here—both coming to the region and acculturating—how do you see the Guyanese experience and the Guyanese example in the capital region fit into larger patterns of immigration and also into this debate about whether or not immigration is good for the country?

Dr. Alejandra Bronfman: [44:18]

Yeah, that's a great question. First of all, it shouldn't be a debate, of course immigration is good for the country. (Babette laughs) This country is made of immigrants, and, you know, we would be nowhere without it. 

Babette Faehmel: [44:29]

Right. 

Dr. Alejandra Bronfman: [44:30]

So, as far as I'm concerned—. (Babette and Dr. Bronfman laugh) But I think—I mean what's really interesting about this community here, and especially sort of just taking a breath and looking at the Capital Region, because so often we tend to focus on New York City or Miami or those kinds of places, right? And I've started to really look at the Capital Region and the kinds of migrations from the Caribbean that are here and—or that have been here also, and it goes...

[44:58]

There's a long, long history going back to when this was Dutch. The first people from the Caribbean who came here, came as enslaved people from Curaçao—which is a Dutch island— and so they, you know, they've left tiny, tiny traces that people have been able to...to sort of...to excavate a little bit. And of course, obviously, they didn't come here of their own volition, right?

Babette Faehmel: [45:27]

Yeah.

Dr. Alejandra Bronfman: [45:28]

But there are, but there are lots of other communities, actually, of people. There are famously— you know, most of the people who work in the racetrack in Saratoga, are from Puerto Rico. (Babette surprise) The—from the jockeys to the people who sort of work there, who take care of the horses, and all of those kinds of things. There are folks from Jamaica who come here regularly and are working in agriculture. There are people from the Caribbean everywhere, right? In the Catskills, apparently, in the 1930s and 40s, wealthier people from the Spanish Caribbean used to come up and vacation. It used to be called the Spanish Riviera for some reason. (laughs) So, I mean, I think that the larger story—if there is one—is that there are all of these communities here, all of these people who have contributed in a bunch of different ways to the region, whose histories really aren't very well known. 

Babette Faehmel: [46:38]

No...

Dr. Alejandra Bronfman: [46:39]

I mean they're kind of buried under the onslaught of either: everybody gets up in arms because suddenly we have, you know, people from Venezuela coming in. When they were like, ‘oh my god, what are we going to do?’ Or, you know, everybody sort of goes directly to the bigger communities in New York City or Toronto or whatever. 

Babette Faehmel: [46:58]

Yeah.

Dr. Alejandra Bronfman: [46:58]

 So, I don't know. I think that there's a lot to be—a lot more to be discovered and explored...

Babette Faehmel: [47:08]

Oh yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Alejandra Bronfman: [47:10]

...with the people who live here.

Babette Faehmel: [47:12]

Yeah

Dr. Alejandra Bronfman [47:13]

Yeah.

Babette Faehmel: [47:13]

So, yeah, absolutely. I mean, like, I don't think a lot of people associate Schenectady with a lot of Caribbean culture and Caribbean—. I mean you are probably much more in tune with that part of our community. But where would you say, like, where do you see the Caribbean kind of like represented in businesses and restaurants and, like stores, like grocery stores? And where do you see those aspects of the community in Schenectady? What are they?

Parsram Pernanand: [47:45]

I think the biggest thing would have to be Guyana Day or Caribbean Day...or is it Guyana Day?

Deviyani Singh: [47:52]

It was formally Guyana Day, but they changed it recently to Caribbean Day, 

(crosstalk)

Babette Faehmel: [47:56]

When is that? February?

Deviyani Singh: [47:58]

It's in September.

Babette Faehmel: [47:59]

September. Okay.

Deviyani Singh [48:01]

It was September 9th this year, I believe. 

Babette Faehmel: [48:03]

Okay.

Deviyani Singh: [48:04]

Basically, we have Caribbean singers come to perform at Central Park.

Babette Faehmel: [48:09]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Deviyani Singh: [48:10]

and there's just different...a lot of cultures are there; like Hispanic, Guyanese, Trinidadian, Jamaicans, all different cultures.

Babette Faehmel: [48:16]

Oh my god, how awesome.

Deviyani Singh: [48:17]

Even Americans are there too.

Babette Faehmel: [48:18]

Yeah, yeah 

Deviyani Singh: [48:19]

And there's...

Babette Faehmel: [48:20]

and even... (laughs)

Deviyani Singh: [48:21]

...a lot of—even Stewart’s were there too. They sponsored it. There's a lot of sponsors.

Babette Faehmel: [48:26]

Yeah.

Deviyani Singh: [48:26]

It's really fun.

Babette Faehmel: [48:27]

That sounds like fun.

Alexandre Lumbala: [48:30]

Are there any other holidays that you guys would say, like, Guyanese specific, that kind of take over your neighborhoods or like the city, or something like that?

Deviyani Singh: [48:40]

I wouldn't say... 

Parsram Pernanand: [48:41]

Like Diwali. 

Deviyani Singh: [48:41]

Yeah.

Babette Faehmel: [48:42]

Yeah. 

Deviyani Singh: [48:43]

But I think Diwali, and, like, Holi, they're celebrated within your family. But during election time—when there's elections going on in Guyana—City Hall normally have a thing, like a rally, or whatever. There was one—there was a rally...I don't remember, like, two or three years ago, somewhere by City Hall and we went. And they were all rallying for PPPC, which is what everyone is in favor of for government-wise. 

Babette Faehmel: [49:10]

Is that the Progressive Party?

Deviyani Singh: [49:13]

Yeah. People Progressive Party/Civic.

Babette Faehmel: [49:13]

Oh, okay. Okay, so the Guyanese politics play out (Devi laughs.) here in Schenectady too.

Deviyani Singh: [49:21]

Yes.

Babette Faehmel: [49:22]

That is so fascinating. I need to start paying more attention to that. 

Parsram Pernanand: [49:26]

What I wanted to mention was that...I mean, if you just drive around Schenectady and just walk around...which businesses do you see more of? 

Babette Faehmel: [49:34]

Right. (Devi laughs.)

Alexandre Lumbala: [49:36]

Yeah, there's definitely a lot of West Indian, Guyanese... (crosstalk)

Deviyani Singh: [49:39]

Definitely straight down State Street. (crosstalk)

Parsram Pernanand: [49:41]

And I mean...so, like, you can kind of...you tell, because you walk around, you're like, ‘well, there's more of these businesses. So, I guess this is the population, that's the majority population that lives here.’ You know?

Alexandre Lumbala: [49:53]

Yeah, yeah.

Parsram Pernanand: [49:54]

There's like barbershops opening up and stuff so...

Alexandre Lumbala: [49:57]

I would say, depending from your perspective, you would kind of get the idea that Guyanese is a majority in Schenectady. Yeah.

Parsram Pernanand: [50:03]

Yeah.

Deviyani Singh: [50:03]

Yeah.

Alexandre Lumbala: [50:04]

Even if it’s—is it? It's not technically the case.

Parsram Pernanand: [50:05]

It’s not.

Babette Faehmel: [50:05]

No.

Alexandre Lumbala: [50:06]

Yeah, but a very active community.

Deviyani Singh: [50:09]

I will add to that too. During when it's like Navratri and when we have to fast for holidays like Diwali and Holi, there's a lot of Guyanese at the temples... yeah.

Babette Faehmel: [50:20]

So, can you...can we maybe—because we have not really talked about that yet—I mean the complexity and the diversity within Guyanese culture itself, right? Because it's multi-ethnic, it's multi-religious, it's like—it's really, really diverse. Can you just, like—for somebody who doesn't really have any Guyanese friends or neighbors—explain a little more about how—. What are some of the differences and similarities between the Guyanese community and, like, other communities and white Americans? (pause) If there's such a thing?

Parsram Pernanand: [50:55]

Everyone looks at Indo-Guyanese and they group into one religion, which is Hinduism. Which is what you see more of like predominantly, but it's split up. It’s—. An Indo-Guyanese person can be of any religion. I've seen the major—not the majority—but the most that I've seen is...or the three main religions I've seen in Indo-Guyanese families is Christianity, Hinduism, and Islam. And these different (pause) religious groups in the Indo-Guyanese community. They connect with the Islamic communities and the Indian communities and the Christian communities that exist already in Schenectady. (pause) I had like a half thought. (Babette laughs.)

Babette Faehmel: [51:49]

We'll come back. (pause) So, there's much more religious diversity than people associate with Guyanese people. (group agreement) Where else do you see differences, like, between your, like, community at home or your culture at home and what you see around you in terms of family structures, family values or...gender roles...conventions among young people?

Parsram Pernanand: [52:22]

I'll just direct us...

Babette Faehmel: [52:23]

Okay.

Parsram Pernanand: [52:24]

...toward—like, the family stuff towards...

Babette Faehmel: [52:25]

 ...the females.

Parsram Pernanand: [52:26]

I mean, I've been talking a lot, but also...

Babette Faehmel: [52:29]

Okay. 

Parsram Pernanand: [52:30]

Yeah, I didn't grow up in a great household. So...

Babette Faehmel: [52:32]

Ah.

Varsha Gopilall: [52:34]

So, it's Varsha here. I’m—my family is Christian. So, I was stereotyped as, like, a Hindu brown girl, but I'm not. I did grow up going to certain functions because my dad is Hindu, and my mom's brother is Hindu. So, I do have some education on the religion, but predominantly I'm Christian. And there is one stereotype that, like, families put on young girls to be, like, the girl child: you have more responsibility, they depend on you more to help out, take care of the family, and the boys just, like, they’re—they just do whatever. 

Babette Faehmel: [53:19]

Okay.

Varsha Gopilall: 53:20

And, like, they're like the babies. The—like the mom will take care of them and stuff like that. But then...

Babette Faehmel: [53:26]

Yeah.

Varsha Gopilall: [53:27]

...the girls are just like expected to do more. 

Babette Faehmel: [53:28]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Varsha Gopilall: [53:29]

I'm pretty sure you can relate.

Deviyani Singh: [53:31]

Yeah, Devi here. So, when we go to those—these religious functions: my mom expects me and my sister to dress fully in our traditional clothing and then my brother just wears his regular clothes—to go to religious functions. And when we ask him why he's not wearing his traditional clothing, he said ‘oh, I don't need to. Mom said I don't have to.’

Babette Faehmel: [53:54]

Oh, okay.

Deviyani Singh: [53:55]

Just like she said the boys are the babies of the family. (Babette laughs.) Even if they're the oldest, the youngest, doesn't matter.

Babette Faehmel: [54:01]

And you're not okay with that.

Deviyani Singh: [54:03]

No, definitely not. (laughter)

Babette Faehmel: [54:04]

No, neither should you be. (agreement)

Alexandre Lumbala: [54:06]

Parsram, what do you think?

Babette Faehmel: [54:07]

That is interesting.

Parsram Pernanand: [54:09]

I didn't really grow up in a normal (laughter) household.

Babette Faehmel: [54:12]

What is a normal household? (laughs)

Deviyani Singh: [54:12]

How many siblings do you have?

Parsram Pernanand: [54:15]

Well, my father was an alcoholic. So, there’s—I have a lot of childhood trauma. And so, the house wasn't very stable.

Babette Faehmel: [54:22]

Mm, okay.

Parsram Pernanand: [54:23]

It was a lot of instability, to be honest, within the family. So, like, the values that I gained were through my mother teaching me and then...like I said earlier, I was able to observe the world for what it really was at a young age. I think it was because of childhood trauma, and that's when I kind of realized, like, you know, the racism. I started to see that more often. I started to, like—. The other values...I picked that just throughout life: just learning, just seeing what people do, realizing it's the wrong thing...

Babette Faehmel: [54:58] 

Yeah.

Parsram Pernanand: [54:59]

...and then realizing, ‘okay, this—what's the opposite, what's the right way to do things?’ And then noticing that and then just living that lifestyle. You know?

Alexandre Lumbala: [55:07]

I think it definitely puts it in perspective when, like, as an immigrant family, your family moves to a country and wants to put up like a very good image or picture of themselves. But then when you start to see the flaws in, like, their individual, like, you know, behaviors, that's when you really start to realize that maybe everything they teach you isn't as perfect. And that helps you as well kind of form your own decisions away from, you know, what they do or say. 

Babette Faehmel: [55:29]

Yeah.

Parsram Pernanand: [55:29]

Yeah.

Alexandre Lumbala: [55:30]

But, so, you would say that for you, you didn't have like a female, like, oriented, like, household structure where, like, they kind of forced everything on the girls or anything like—. And then gave you—gave the guys an easier time, in a sense.

Parsram Pernanand: [55:48]

I feel like my sister would have to speak more on that.

Alexandre Lumbala: [55:50]

Yeah. (laughter)

Parsram: [55:52]

You know, like, obviously being a guy...

Alexandre Lumbala: [55:54]

You miss those things that you don't see. 

Parsram Pernanand: [55:56]

I'm not—I'm not noticing those things as much, cause I'm not... 

Babette Faehmel: [55:59]

Yeah.

Parsram Pernanand: [56:59]

I'm not that person.

Alexandre Lumbala: [56:00]

Yeah.

Parsram Pernanand: [56:01]

I'm not paying attention to it, you know?

Babette Faehmel: [56:02]

That's a great insight too.

Parsram Pernanand: [56:05]

I didn't—. (pause) I think the only difference...that I really saw—and I guess it would be from my point of view—was that my sister never got beaten. (laughter)

Babette Faehmel: [56:16]

Yeah.

Parsram Pernanand: [56:17]

She never got a hand laid on her, but I got...I got beaten pretty badly.

Deviyani Singh: [56:22]

I want to add to that. 

Parsram Pernanand: [56:23]

Go ahead.

Deviyani Singh: [56:24]

Me and my siblings—my brother and sister—we definitely got beaten. When we were living in Guyana we did, like, almost every day.

Babette Faehmel: [56:32]

Oh my god.

Deviyani Singh: [56:34]

(laughs) It was for our behaviors, not for no reason.

Babette Faehmel: [56:35]

Oh, okay, okay.

Deviyani Singh: [56:36]

But when we moved over here...

Babette Faehmel: [56:36]

So, it's more strict?

Deviyani Singh: [56:38]

Yeah. When we moved over here, for like our first three years, we still got beaten, but then...now we don't. 

Babette Faehmel: [56:45]

Okay. (laughter) So, sometimes, like, the assimilation to, like, the more, like, I don't know, middle-class styles of child rearing, was a good thing in that regard.

Deviyani Singh: [56:53]

Yes.

Babette Faehmel: [56:55]

(laughs) Okay, wow, okay, and that's super, super intriguing. So, I have some closing questions, because the other idea about having a DEI podcast is to make sure that our students feel included and, like, and seen and really feel, like, ideally feel at home, of being made to feel at home at SUNY Schenectady. And so I was just wondering if you, as people with a very rich cultural background and incredible insights and experiences, do you think that that, like, as an institution, we are doing enough to, first of all make you feel welcome, and honor your culture, honor your contributions? Or should we—or could we—do more? (Unintelligible) the episode get good ideas.

Varsha Gopilall: [57:43]

I feel pretty included here.

Babette Faehmel: [57:44]

Excellent.

Parsram Pernanand: [57:46]

I mean, yeah, it's—. It's hard not to, because the first thing I noticed was that you have a president of an international club who's Guyanese. (laughter) 

Babette Faehmel: [57:57]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Parsram Pernanand: [57:58]

The president of the S—Student Activity Board... 

Deviyani Singh: [57:59]

Activity board is Indian.

Parsram Pernanand: [57:59]

...is also Guyanese.

Deviyani Singh: [58:00]

He’s Indian.

Parsram Pernanand: [58:01]

He's Indian? So, he’s Indian, sorry. (laughter)

Deviyani Singh: [58:05]

And we have—our Treasurer for International Club here is Guyanese.

Babette Faehmel: [58:08]

Okay.

Parsram Pernanand: [58:13]

So, I feel like it's hard not to feel included...

Babette Faehmel: [58:15]

Yeah.

Parsram Pernanand: [58:16]

...when you're a large population.

Babette Faehmel: [58:17]

You are, you are, definitely. 

Deviyani Singh: [58:18]

I would say otherwise.

Babette Faehmel: [58:19]

Yeah?

Varsha Gopilall: [58:21]

Yeah.

Deviyani Singh: [58:22]

Yeah. When it comes to being included, I feel like the school doesn't do enough to include international students. (pause) I don't know how to say it.

Alexandre Lumbala: [58:33]

It’s a—. I can make a comment on that cause I'm an international student and I went to a different community college first. And I think I know what you mean. Like, there's no...there’s no...

Deviyani Singh: [58:42]

There's no recognition, like, of...

Alexandre Lumbala: [58:43]

...of, yeah.

Deviyani Singh: [58:44]

Yeah, like, the International Club, they made flyers to put up around the school for Zambians, and we're trying to do that more for different cultures and more international students.

Babette Faehmel: [58:54]

I mean for Guyanese students, it would make perfect sense, right? To have, like, the Independence Day...

Deviyani Singh: [59:00]

Yes.

Babette Faehmel: [59:01]

...that's February, I believe, and those kinds of things.

Varsha Gopilall: [59:03]

Do we like really celebrate Guyanese Independence Day?

Babette Faehmel: [59:07]

No.

Varsha Gopilall: [59:07]

Like, do you guys? Cause...

Deviyani Singh: [59:09]

Since we moved over here, we didn't, but in Guyana there used to be a whole big celebration. It's called Mashramani. Yeah, it's a big parade. It's really fun.

Babette Faehmel: [59:18]

We started with Diwali last year, I believe.

Deviyani Singh: [59:21]

We were trying to do the Diwali event, but we didn't give a two-weeks notice, so it might be canceled now.

Babette Faehmel: [59:27]

Oh. (laughs)

Parsram Pernanand: [59:29]

I think the thing that we just kind of have, like, focus on more...is that Guyana as a country, it's also a melting pot. (group agreement) It's not just Indo-Guyanese that live there...

Varsha Gopilall: [59:42]

Yeah, Chinese Guyanese.

Parsram Pernanand: [59:44]

There's a lot of different races that live there 

Deviyani Singh: [59:46]

Yeah. 

Parsram Pernanand: [59:46]

And to—. (pause) To show recognition I feel like the better way would be to bring those Guyanese people, those different...

Babette Faehmel: [59:55]

Yeah. 

Parsram Pernanand: [59:55]

...races onto the podcast.

Babette Faehmel: [59:57]

Oh, okay.

Parsram Pernanand: [59:58]

Cause, I mean...

Varsha or Devi?: [59:59]

There's not much though...

Parsram Pernanand: [1:00:00]

...I’m looking around the room right now and I'm only noticing that it's only Indo-Guyanese right? (laughter)

Deviyani Singh: [1:00:03]

Yes.

Babette Faehmel: [1:00:04]

Yeah.

Parsram Pernanand: [1:00:05]

It's not—I don't see anybody else that's...

Babette Faehmel: [1:00:07]

True.

Parsram Pernanand: [1:00:08]

(unintelligible) I don't see any Afro Guyanese, you know. So, the...the question I have to—not the question—but the—. I think I have to be like; it's to bring more of those people on to...

Deviyani Singh: [1:00:16]

Yeah.

Babette Faehmel: [1:00:17]

Totally, totally. 

Parsram Pernanand: [1:00:18]

...give more background.

Babette Faehmel: [1:00:19]

We will be counting on your help and support. (Devi laughs.)

Parsram Pernanand: [1:00:22]

I've only met one Afro-Guyanese person too...the entire time I've been here. It's cause I don't get out much, to be honest. (laughter) But, yeah, definitely we should...

Babette Faehmel: [1:00:33]

No, absolutely.

Parsram Pernanand: [1:00:34]

...put that on our list.

Babette Faehmel: [1:00:35]

Absolutely, that sounds very needed and very important. So, are you on that, Alex?

Alexandre Lumbala: [1:00:42]

Yeah, it's definitely true that Indo-Guyanese make up the majority of Guyanese on campus, but there are a select few, like, students that I can think of that are different ethnicities.

Parsram Pernanand: [1:00:53]

I believe we should speak to them because, as I'm hearing you, like, talk about, like, you know, holidays and, like, celebrations; these are all celebrations other than for, like the Guyanese Independence Day. Most of these are celebrations that have to do with only one specific ethnic group...

Alexandre Lumbala: [1:01:07]

Okay.

Parsram Pernanand: [1:01:08]

...and that's Indo-Guyanese or just Indo-Guyanese...

Babette Faehmel: [1:01:10]

Yeah.

Parsram Pernanand: [1:01:11]

...that are Hindu.

Alexandre Lumbala: [1:01:12]

But different ethnicities have their own...

Parsram Pernanand: [1:01:14]

Exactly.

Alexandre Lumbala: [1:01:14]

...celebrations and all that.

Parsram Pernanand: [1:01:15]

And there's more to it.

Babette Faehmel: [1:01:17]

Absolutely. We need to have another strategy meeting...cause you're not, I mean, you’re not busy enough already. (laughter) That little bit of homework. Okay, that's a plan. Sounds like a plan. Alejandra, do you wanna—do you have some passing or some closing thoughts or last questions for the students?

Dr. Alejandra Bronfman: [1:01:40]

No, I just actually am feeling very grateful to have been included in this conversation and to have gotten to know you guys a little bit. It gives me hope for the next generation. To be honest, I always say that our generation kind of messed things up, really messed things up. (laughter) And I really like your idea of thinking about the diversity within the country and the diversity across the student body and thinking about you know ways to come together or ways to sort of recognize everybody in their difference or however, you know, however is best to proceed. So, yeah, I'm just—thank you.

 Babette Faehmel: [1:02:19]

Well, we have to thank you. I mean, that's always—it's always amazing when our partner institutions and our sister SUNY schools are collaborating with us and adding to the content and the insights and whatnot. So, yeah, thank you again: Varsha, Pasram, Devi and Professor Bronfman. That was really very educating, very informational and a little bit humbling, because I don't like necessarily to be—. Well, it's important that we realize what we don't know and don't know yet, and what we should still try to, like, figure out and do more. So, thank you.

Deviyani Singh: [1:03:00]

Thank you for having us.

Varsha Gopilall: [1:03:01]

Thank you for having me.

Babette Faehmel: [1:03:01]

You're very welcome. (laughter)

Babette Faehmel: [1:03:05]

Many Voices, One Call is made possible thanks to the contributions of the SUNY Schenectady Foundation. We are especially grateful for the School of Music’s—and in particular Stan Isaacson's—continuing generous support with the technical details. The recording and editing of the podcast was possible thanks to music students Joe Neeson, Rowan Breen, and Andre Valvedia. Heather Meaney, Karen Tansky, and Jessica McHugh-Green deserve credit for promoting the podcast. Thanks also go to Vice President of Academic Affairs, Mark Meacham, College President Steady Moono, the Student Government Association, and the Student Activities Advisor. Stay tuned for more episodes where you get your podcasts.